Dear Rahvin;
Apparently you don't believe I, or anyone, can read a book and understand it without being told what to believe by another person. A Jehovah's Witness, I assume. Prefer not to have someone tell me what I believe. I can decide what I believe in by myself, thank you very much. And I have found answers in the Bible, quite a few of them. I doubt they are remotely close to the same answers you have found, but that doesn't mean my interpretation is wrong. I am just as entitled to it as you are to yours.
OK, no point in arguing about it, here read this and tell me who the two kings are and what the table was. (Daniel 11:27) "And as regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to doing what is bad, and at one table a lie is what they will keep speaking. But nothing will succeed, because [the] end is yet for the time appointed."
There is only one correct interpretation, wrong ones conflict with other verses while the right one is supported by other verses. The correct interpretation can not be over turned, which is why the Jews sought to kill Saul/Paul, he was publicly proving them wrong from the scriptures and they could not scripturally disprove his argument. (Acts 9:22) "But Saul kept on acquiring power all the more and was confounding the Jews that dwelt in Damascus as he proved logically that this is the Christ."
And other Christians did the same. (Acts 18:28) "for with intensity he thoroughly proved the Jews to be wrong publicly, while he demonstrated by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ."
Wrong interpretations of scripture are easily disproved by showing how they are in conflict with other verses. (2 Timothy 3:16) "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight,"
Even if we assume for the sake of argument that Jehovah's Witnesses are correct, they would have no right to enforce their beliefs on people who believe differently. Secular society is the ONLY way to ensure that each religion's rights are protected without infringing on the rights of others.
Taking the "bearing good fruit" analogy, fundamental Christians (including Jehovah's Witnesses) hope and pray for the Apocalypse, and the DEATHS OF BILLIONS OF PEOPLE! Not only that, you hope for the billions who die to be sent to eternal torment in Hell! You preach fear, fear of eternal torment to gain believers, rather than teaching people to do what is good and right for its own sake. You preach bigotry and persecution of any who do not follow your beliefs, being only nice enough to gain new converts. I don't call any of that "good fruit." I think that fails the "love thy neighbor" test. You know, by praying for his death and eternal torment and all.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all," The Bible is clear that the dead are unconscious being in a state of nonexistence, and of course are not in any pain or anything. So Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the non biblical teaching of torment in Hell.
We also believe that everyone has the right to chose to serve to serve God or not, forced loyalty is of no value. We value freedom of religion very highly and believe everyone has the right to chose their own beliefs. We don't force our beliefs on anyone, you can't force anyone to 'want' to serve God, it has to come from their own heart. If we encounter someone who doesn't want to hear what we want to say, we go look for someone else who does. We do not "preach bigotry and persecution of any who do not follow your beliefs", while we are frequently the recipients of such, we follow the Bible's command. (Romans 12:17) "Return evil for evil to no one." (1 Peter 2:21-23) "Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening,"
We also do not pray for people to die, that would be sick. Rather we pray that people listen to the Good News and gain life. If all we were interested was in saving ourselves and didn't care about anyone else, we wouldn't have to preach trying to save lives. It is our wish and God's, that everyone listen and be saved from dying. (1 Timothy 2:3-4) "This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth." The only ones who will die at armageddon be those who reject God and refuse to serve him.
What we do pray for concerning billions of people, is the coming resurrection of billions of people from the dead.
Non-Christians are perfectly capable of developing a good moral code just as strong and more sensible than the code put down in the Bible. Rules about sexuality and diet are irrelevant morally — breaking them hurts no one, and so they are not immoral. Theft, murder, rape, torture, etc. all have victims. People and/or society as a whole are adversely affected by them, and therefore they are immoral. You see? Science and logic just advanced morality past the outdated static rules set forth in the Bible.
Apparently not. Immoral sex has no victims? Tell that to some one who just got AIDS. You can find some of the smaller victims in the dumpster behind the clinic. Never hear of broken homes, children of divorce, wives of cheating husbands, illegitimate children, teenage single mothers, fatherless kids, moral decay of society (not a joke, some of us are trying to raise kids) and of course STD. People may like to think that their actions don't effect anyone else, but frequently they do, like the heart break of finding your wife or girl friend has been cheating. Thinking like yours has helped make the world the moral mess that it is. Do you really want to live in Sodom and Gomorrah? Your advanced morality doesn't seem so advanced.
The story you post is quite admirable, but it doesn't prove your point. It proves that many Jehovah's Witnesses remained strong in their beliefs and chose concentration camps rather than betrayal of what they believed in. It does NOT prove that under the same circumstances, an Atheist or person of another religion would break by default. Can you offer evidence of this? Your claim requires that anyone NOT a Jehovah's Witness would break under similar circumstances, every time. . . . Prove that all other religious organizations cooperated with the Nazis. Prove that all of their practitioners also failed to take a moral stand. Prove that those who DID dissent were not sent to the concentration camps, and/or that they eventually broke down and renounced their faith. You make bold claims, wmscott, but I have yet to see any EVIDENCE! . . . Please also note that if God grants this unshakeable faith and peace to Witnesses, there should be NO de-conversions. This is not the case. You will of course say that these people must not have been "true" Jehovah's Witnesses.
First off, very few Jehovah's Witnesses broke under pressure from the Nazis, of those who did, did so because they lost faith in God, God didn't lose faith in them. God sticks with us as long as we stick with him. Jesus was the very son of God, and yet of his own 12 apostles betrayed him, Judas made his own choice. Some people will fail to serve God, the fault is theirs not God's.
Jehovah's Witnesses were alone in their stand, none of the members of other religious groups were sent to the concentration camps simply for being members of their respective religion. Jehovah's Witnesses at the time of WWII were a very small religious group, and yet they are the only religion listed in the groups of prisoners in the concentration camps.
http://www.pink-triangle.org/ptps/symbol.htmlWhere were the large groups of Catholics and the Lutherans who for moral reasons opposed Hitler? Not in the camps, they as a religion activity supported the Nazis. Those sent to the camps were sent for other reasons, political prisoners, criminals etc, and comprised a large part of the concentration camp population. Since Germany at the time was by far mostly Catholic and lutheran, most of the non Jewish and non Jehovah's Witnesses prisoners would be of those two religions. Their conduct was touched on in my earlier post, in some of the quotes it was stated.
Bruno Bettelheim observed that the Witnesses "were the only group of prisoners who never abused or mistreated other prisoners"
The other prisoner groups with the probable exception of the Jews, were of course composed of people representing the general religious makeup of Germany, Catholics and Lutherans. Abusing other prisoners is not a sign of having retained one's inner peace.
Most of the inmates during the early days of Dachau were political prisoners. These inmates were never told how long they would be imprisoned, a factor that had severe negative effects on their morale and overall mental health.
http://www.historyplace.com/...dwar2/timeline/dach-early.htm
It is to be expected that the political prisoners included many Catholics and Lutherans and inner peace wise, they didn't do too well.
There is also the factor that the camps were run by Germans who were undoubtably predominately Catholics and Lutherans, the fact that they could commit such terrible acts, negates any possibility of ether of those two religions as being a source of true inner peace or even instilling higher moral values in their members.
Hitler owed his rise to power to Catholic support and that support was critical to his success. One example of this support was the Concordat signed between Nazi Germany and the Vatican in which the church promised to promote Nazism.
On 20 July 1933 the Reich Concordat with the Vatican was signed by von Papen as representative of the Nazi Government of Germany. This instrument was an international treaty which purported to give the church an official guarantee of all the church rights it had sought. In addition it purported to confer freedom for Catholic organizations, maintenance of parochial schools, and preservation of the general influence of the church on the education of the German Catholic youth. Among the 33 articles of the Concordat, 21 treated exclusively the rights and prerogatives accorded to the church. Reciprocation consisted only in a pledge of loyalty by the clergy to the Reich Government and a promise that Catholic religious instruction would emphasize the patriotic duties of the Christian citizen and insist on a loyal attitude toward the Fatherland. Since it had always been the practice of the Catholic church to abide by established governments and to promote patriotic convictions among the faithful, these stipulations of the Concordat were no more than legalizations of an existing custom. They were no more than a guarantee of goodwill betokening harmonious Church-State relations (2655-PS).
Nuremberg Trial Defendants: Franz Von Papen
The Catholic Church even went further than just supporting the Nazis. "When Jehovah's Witnesses were suppressed in Bavaria on April 13 the Church even accepted the assignment given it by the Ministry of Education and Religion of reporting on any member of the sect still practicing the forbidden religion." The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany, by Guenter Lewy. They willingly served as the eyes and ears of the Nazis and reported Jehovah's Witnesses, which undoubtably resulted in a number of Witnesses being sent to their deaths in the concentration camps.
The Lutheran Church of course followed a simular path of cooperation and support, as did the smaller religious groups.
As the Witnesses prepared themselves for trouble, the other sects, particularly the Mormons and Christian Scientists, mustered their friends abroad. As they came to realise the nature of the regime and to witness the closure of Trade Unions, church organisations and measures being taken against the Witnesses, each of those groups, hoping to be tolerated, offered some degree of appeasement. Statements of loyalty and prayers for the Fhrer were manifold, and copies of the texts of pro-Nazi sermons and prayers were inevitably sent to the Reich Chancellery. Mormons continued to forge cultural links with the government, Adventists offered increased co-operation in the state charity and welfare schemes and the New Apostolic Church organized church parades to incorporate the S.S. and S.A. uniforms and flags. Whilst the Evangelical churches and the New Apostolic Church were holding church parades and displaying the Swastika in their churches, Witnesses were preparing to go underground and teaching their members how to survive in prison and how to contact other Witnesses for support and comfort.
The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non-Conformity: Some Conclusions
As a religion, only Jehovah's Witnesses took a moral stand against the Nazis. The other religions failed their members as being a good moral guide, and by compromising they showed a lack of faith in God. If any members of these other religions found and kept inner peace while morally resisting the Nazis, they had to find it from a source other than their religious leaders, perhaps by reading the Bible and praying on their own, some found inner peace. But as a group, only Jehovah's Witnesses had true inner peace from God, the other religions were all heading the other way.
PROVE THAT NON-JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES CANNOT HAVE A SENSE OF PEACE JUST AS STRONG
To 'prove' anything, you test it, and in the testing of people's sense of inner peace, faith and hope under the stressful conditions of the German concentration camps. The vast majority of people were crushed, they lost their inner peace, hope and faith, they gave up. Only Jehovah's Witnesses showed nearly universal moral strength. As shown above, the other religions were supporting the Nazis, so any member of those religions going against the Nazis had to go against their own church as well, so their religion was not supporting them or being a source of peace to them.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
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