Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?

Bigalow proponent are ya? Is the red highlight there to help you prove your unsubstantiated opinions, or does it symbolically represent your rage or something. Could be both I guess.

No it's because many of the people on here have a strange problem were they pretend they cannot see things that they don't like.So what is your religious viewpoint? Christian, JW, Atheist?

You can really call it whatever you like. And no, I'm not trying to beachhead. I'm forming a stance and sticking to it. Just because I support part and not all of what WM asserts has something to do, I believe, with us being different people. I'm not trying to insinuate myself further or anything of that nature. People have their own rights to come to their own conclusions. I only hold to things that are "matter of fact."This message has been edited by Watson75, 08-04-2005 05:01 AM

My religious viewpoint is not relevent here. I try my best to remain--and wish to be viewed--as an objective machine.

Ah... of course... not an attempt at a beachhead at all.(for those wondering a beachhead works as follows - one member of a cult will make various suggestions, then someone appearing to be netural will appear and say "gosh I'm netural but what you are saying makes an awful lot of sense - could you tell us more/you've proved your case convincely". It works in the same way as the planted member of the audience at a magic show).

He made the assertion. He didn't back it up with anything other than rhetoric. No evidence. He demonstrated that JWs held to their faith. This could be easily dismissed as the result of cult brainwashing, as well. He has repeatedly ignored evidence that people of other faiths and no faith have also kept to their ideals in the face of extreme adversity under the threat of torture and/or death. 1)It's impossible to prove the existance of God.
2)Every single NON-Jehovah's Witness would contest that assertion. And wmscott would be unable to prove it, as it is based on faith, not known fact. He hasn't proven a damned thing. He hasn't done anything except repeat religious rhetoric and claim it as "Evidence."

Certainly seems to fit the pattern. But perhaps Watson75 would like to show us exactly HOW wmscott has supposedly "proven" anything at all in this thread?

Dear Rahvin; Incorrect, I was always speaking of groups. Jehovah's Witnesses have only been around for less than 200 years, I was never saying that no one before that had true inner peace, the peace from God. The whole point of my argument was that it was our biblically correct beliefs as Jehovah's Witnesses that put us in line to receive the blessing of God's peace, our beliefs as a group. I have always been speaking in terms of groups. I doubt that for an individual, a firm case can be made for inner peace, since it would not be possible to separate one person's behavior from their personal qualities, while when considering groups that is much less of problem. Incorrect, you were never able to name another group that matched the moral strength displayed by Jehovah's Witnesses in the Nazi concentration camps. Individuals survived due to individual factors, personality, being less of a target, or other things. If there had been a group of moral atheists in the camps who displayed great moral qualities despite all the Nazis did to them to break them and make them fight for Hitler, then you would have a case. But there wasn't such a group. Great reasoning. You never disputed this, at least not in detail, you never asked for evidence supporting any of our doctrinal positions. I would be very happy to do so, you can also check for yourself at: http://www.watchtower.org Crashfrog was going to, but I think he let us down, so feel free, I would love to discuss in detail the scriptural support for our beliefs. Terrific, I am glad that at least you understood that much. More great reasoning. By using the phrase "peace of mind that comes from having a hope of living again." I was referring to the kind of inner peace that christains in general have, and atheists don't have.
I have used pharses such as "unbreakable inner peace" "True inner peace" "the peace from God" "type 3 inner peace" to all refer to the peace that God gives to those who worship him in Truth. I have used other pharses in referring to general types of inner peace. I am sorry if this is too confusing for you, let me know what you need clarifed. The goalposts haven't been moved, you just got confused, sorry if I used too many terms for inner peace and True inner peace. (did you follow that now?) I provided plenty of historical accounts and cited many scriptures, even found a few scientific studies that touched on the matter partly. And yes a book can prove itself true when it is the Bible, ask those who know. Here are the points I have been arguing; [and how to falsify them], {and some of the evidence for them}.Atheists have no substitute for the inner peace based on hope of the resurrection that a Christian has. [show that the majority of atheists have a firm hope of life after death, cryogenics, sci-fi type time travel to bring people from the past back to life, etc.] {Fact that atheists as a group, don't have any hope of life after death, but rather just accept death, without hope.}
The strongest inner peace comes from God. [find a stronger source or disprove the existence of this one] {biblical support, examples of JW in death camps displaying extreme peace as a group and the lack of any other group doing the same}God only gives his peace to those who worship him in truth,(JWs and possibly other sincere individuals). [show that this interpretation of scripture is wrong biblically or that other groups who's belief's are in clear conflict with scripture have this peace as shown by their conduct being simular or better than JWs] {biblical support, logical, and only those who do, have displayed this peace as a group}Jehovah's Witnesses are unique in following the Bible, their beliefs are in harmony with scripture. [show major conflicts with scripture] {scriptural support for all beliefs and the beliefs of other religions conflict with scripture, the uniqueness of JW as a religion and their conduct; as a group}Since Jehovah's Witnesses are the only religion that worships God in biblical truth, they are the only ones in line to receive God's peace and their having this peace is evident by their conduct as a group. [show that another religion has beliefs that are even more biblical than JWs, and has better or same conduct of displaying peace.] {again the agreement between JW and scripture, the lack of agreement for other religions, JW demonstration of having God's peace in their conduct, and the conduct of other religions clearly showing that they do not have God's peace. (all as groups)}Those are my arguments, I think you will agree that disproving some of them is impossible since they are obviously true and some of the others like proving or disproving the existence of God, are a topic on to themselves and are probably to big is discuss at length here. I of course think that it is impossible to disprove any of the above points since they are all correct, but that is what debates are all about. So I would recommend picking one that you think would be the easiest to prove and starting there, and if we resolve it one way or the other, then move on to the next point rather then trying to discuss them all at once.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

Could you define "inner peace," please? What are its qualities? How does one feel if one has inner peace?

Your opening post certainly never made that clear. The thread title is "are there any substitutes for inner peace?" The assertion that only JW's have it didn't show up until later. In other words, you moved the goalposts.I also dispute the idea that you can measure "inner peace" in groups. Such a highly subjective concept as "inner peace" can only be judged on an individual level. You would certainly say that a single JW who didn't demonstrate "true inner peace" didn't have "true faith," and was an abberration, wouldn't you? I have given many examples of individuals who have stuck to their ideals under similar or identical conditions. Let's add a few more - what about the Germans like Schindler who saved Jews at their own risk, doing what they believed to be right despite the threat of being sent to the camps if they were caught? What about the family that hid Anne Frank, and the thousands of families like them who hid Jews at their own risk?"Oh, but they weren't a unified group" doesn't cut it, wmscott. Inner peace, like faith, is an individual thing. I did dispute it, and I don't need to go into detail. Every other Christian religion thinks they have it right, and that JW's do not. I don't want any, or need it. They are doctrine, as you yourself said. Just because JW's say they are right doesn't mean they are. It's a matter of religious rhetoric and doctrine, and cannot be used to prove anything in the real world. Nice sidestep, but you didn't address the fact that your argument fails if the Bible is not literal truth. You have not given a reason to believe the Bible is literal truth, either. Well, if the assumptions and requirements of your argument fail, how would the conclusion still be valid? Are you working under some new rules of logic I haven't heard of? Okay, so you've spouted rhetoric and carefully crafted your assertion and definitions so that JW's by definition, are the only ones who recieve "true peace." But you didn't prove anything. "The bible is true becuase it says it's God's Word. Since God's word must be true, the Bible must be true!"This is called circular reasoning. A book cannot prove itself. Only exernal testing can prove anything. You take a literal interpretation of the Bible on faith, which is fine. But it cannot prove anything outside of basic theology. Alright, let's have a look. You're right - their inner peace is not based on any hope of resurrection. That doesn't mean they don't have inner peace.As to your claim that the strongest inner peace comes from God - Prove that God exists. I won't hold my breath, since it's a matter of faith and cannot be proven. If there is no God (and you can't prove there is), then how could He give the strongest inner peace? Again, prove that He even exists. As for examples of people who have inner peace but do not follow the JW interpretation of the Bible: Mother Teresa, Schindler, Martin Luther King Jr, various atheists in the military, families in WW2 who hid Jews out of conscience, etc.Note - the JWs in WW2 did not hide the Jews, and you have not shown that they tried to resist the horrors or help anyone at all. All that you've shown is that they stuck to their faith - admirable, yes, but others actually took action at their own risk. I, and many other non-Witness Christians, believe that our beliefs are in harmony with the true spirit of God. We believe Witnesses to be just as misguidfed as Witnesses believe us to be. Which one of us is right is a matter of faith and personal interpretation of the Bible. This rests on the idea that the interpretation held by JWs is true and correct. This is not factual, it is theological. It's a matter of faith. People who do not follow the JW interpretation and doctrine have possessed inner peace at least as strong as that held by those JWs interred in the concentration camps.You're going to use the "group" thing again, I assume. You can't measure inner peace on a group basis. Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole are not some magic entity that eliminates all doubt from its midst - there are some within even your faith who will break. This shows that inner peace is an individual property, and cannot be measured in groups. Since this is the case, the individual non-Witnesses I have shown to have inner peace disprove your assertion. Since your assertion relies entirely on the existance of God, and you cannot prove He exists, your assertion is disproven. Since you rely on a literal JW interpretation of the Bible, and other Christians believe that interpretation to be flase doctrine (and you cannot prove them wrong outside of a matter of faith), your assertion is broken.You're free to believe as you wish, wmscott, and I'm sure you have faith that God has given His true peace to you and your brothers and sisters alone. But if you want to have a debate with non-Witnesses, you have to understand that we are not going to accept some of the assumptions and ideas you take as granted. You need proof outside of your own theology, and I'm afraid you simply cannot provide it.

Amazing. I'm actually quite shocked. I really didn't think anyone would hazard to disagree with my points. Ahh, but who am I kidding. Frankly, I don't even believe evidence is required for this one other than the statement itself. It's the equivalent of denying that a child who wants candy and recieves candy would not be happier than a a child who wants candy and is denied candy. There is no other evidence required.It's an inherent human quality to wish not to "kick the bucket." Those who are firmly convinced they're going to live forever with loved ones, as opposed to those who are firmly convinced they will perish forever along with loved ones, clearly have more inner peace. I really don't see an argument here. And the reason people chose to differ with this is reason for pondering on my behalf.

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resolve in the face of death that Jehovah's Witnesses have an extremely high level of inner peace.

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I believe that statement speaks for itself.

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This could be easily dismissed as the result of cult brainwashing

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In this particular case, that is not the issue. I wasn't debating where they received their inner peace from.

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evidence that people of other faiths and no faith have also kept to their ideals in the face of extreme adversity under the threat of torture and/or death

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Other religions don't have the "tested and passed" trademark of JW's, which is certainly worth something... [suggest] extremely high level of inner peace

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I don't personally know of another case where a religion group was imprisoned by the hundreds (or thousands?), and chose to remain faithful to the point of death. If there is, I will retract my claim. And even if there were, that's not even the point I was making. The fact that they did, is all that's relevent to point to their "extremely high level of inner peace." Good, I'm glad you agree with me on something. And what I was proposing for wmscott to do was not prove the existence of God or JW's truthfullness, but rather, I was proposing "to highly convince" others, as it were. I care to differ. If you wish step back yourself and view what he has accomplished, be my guest. You also have just as much right to step back, as I have, and view what he can't accomplish and what you've proposed he can't accomplish. He can still attempt to convince, and that's what's nice about debates. Even if something is not the end all, it can still make up ground. Likewise, you can attempt to do the same thing. I was actually attempting to act as a referee for this topic. There's perhaps a number of a fouls being committed, on both sides, which required a clean perspective.This message has been edited by Watson75, 08-04-2005 07:40 PM

I dunno, how about The Jews?

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*not an actual doctor

The Jews had no choice.

and to compare - we therefore need a similar situation - when your breathen rounded up in a similar manner, none of them became guards or informers?By the way, remind me, what did the Watchtower 1934 yearbook says about the jews?ABE: actually even a quick google reveals lots of interesting material about the position and actions of JWs in WW2 - if we head down this road (as "proof" of inner peace, this could get quite interesting.....)This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 04-Aug-2005 07:57 PM

But you ignore the fact that there can be other sources of inner peace besides hope of resurrection. People don't just give up hope and live out miserable lives because they don't believe in an afterlife. As previously mentioned, you seem to assert that all of the Jews who were imprisoned gave up hope and lost their inner peace. That's an awfully big assertion. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought we were on a debate forum, where we discussed things and talked about evidence. If wmscott wants to simply spit rhetoric and preach to the rest of us that we are wrong and his religion is right, I suggest he find another place to do so. wmscott's proposal depends entirely on the perspective of his religion. To those of us who do not share his beliefs, he has gotten nowhere, proven nothing, and made bigotted statements. He's free to believe as he wishes, but if he wants a debate on a debate forum regarding a state of mind across all religions, he's going to need more than religious doctrine and the Bible.