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Author Topic:   Someone who admits he knows nothing about geology, asking where the colum came from?
gene90
Member (Idle past 3853 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 4 of 64 (24618)
11-27-2002 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Karl
11-27-2002 10:37 AM


[QUOTE][B]It is 100% consistent across the globe.[/QUOTE]
[/B]
That really needs to be clarified. The Principle of Superposition (that the oldest layers are at the bottom and layers get progressively older as you go up) works except at unconformities and thrust faults.

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 Message 3 by Karl, posted 11-27-2002 10:37 AM Karl has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3853 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 40 of 64 (24957)
11-29-2002 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky
11-28-2002 10:43 PM


Just curious what we think the core is made of.
We *think* the core is primarily made of an alloy of nickel and iron. The reason we think that is because in a molten, early earth the heaviest elements would have sunk the deepest into the center, and the most common heavy elements in this part of the Solar System are iron and nickel. Also iron meteorites consist of nickel-iron and they are believed to be fragments of the cores of large asteroids. So, although we have never sampled Earth's core and probably never will, we *suspect* that iron meteorites are similar in chemical composition.
Plus we think that the Earth "grew" by being hit with a lot of meteorites in its early history, and the nickel-iron would have sunk
right in.
We *know* whatever is down there is dense. Since we know the strength of Earth's gravitational pull we know the mass of the Earth and we know the volume of the Earth we can find out what the the average density of Earth is. And we can easily observe the density of rocks on the Earth's surface. Surprise! (And I'm pulling this off a website, not calculating myself) the density of rocks near the surface ranges between 2,000 - 3,000 kilograms per cubic meter of rock. The average density of Earth is 5500 kilograms per cubic meter of material. The composition of Earth must therefore change with depth, and the core must be much heavier than what we have near the surface.
And if it is solid how is it staying solid in such heat?
Boiling point & melting point temperatures of substances increases with pressure. The inner core is under a lot of pressure so it doesn't melt even though it must be very hot. In fact some theoretical predictions have material from the liquid outer condensing onto the solid inner core as the Earth's interior slowly cools, so it's actually more likely to grow than to melt.
By the way, we have strong evidence that the outer core is liquid and the inner core is solid from studies of earthquake waves. We also know about how far down the boundaries are between the different layers of the Earth from these seismic studies.
http://www.uoregon.edu/~dogsci/dorsey/geo101/lect11.html
So the lithosphere is where we have our cracked shell (the plates) and they are all moving ontop of superheated rock that has become maluable like heated plastic.
Pretty much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-28-2002 10:43 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-29-2002 9:06 PM gene90 has replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3853 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 42 of 64 (25002)
11-29-2002 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by funkmasterfreaky
11-29-2002 9:06 PM


This makes sense to me so i take it both sides are in agreement that at some point in the earths history (however it came to be) the earth was very maluable and the heavier metal elements sunk to the core
Well there are a lot of different Creationist interpretations. One I read today, and did a critique of under "A creationist take on quickly forming giant gaseous planets" on this board said that the Earth could never have been molten. That view makes some sense from a Creationist perspective because it would take it so long to cool, we would need an old Earth (older than 6000 years) to really make that possible.
Then the very inner core due to pressure maintains it's solid form but the outer core is a liquid, kind of acting as a lubricant.
Kind of, I suppose, but we don't know much at all about the physics of what's going on down there, what kinds of movements and currents are and that sort of thing so I don't know if I'd call it a lubricant. Maybe a sort of "insulator"(?)
How accepted is the idea that there was once a "super continent" pangea i think it's refered to as?
Most of the concept of continental motions, and Pangea, are accepted almost unanimously through the geologic community.
It's very new though. It was noticed even in the 1920s that the continents seemed to fit and shared the same rock and fossil types from the time of Pangea, but nobody could come up with a reasonable explanation of how continents made of rock could break and drift apart. At that time the best they could do was suggest that the continents were actually being dragged over the sea floor in response to tides...which was shown to be impossible so the idea was put on hold. In the 1960s paleomagnetism data and studies of the sea floor led to the theory of plate tectonics, which actually seems to work, and the idea caught on. And now we can even measure the motion of continents (North America moves about as fast as fingernails grow).
Oh yeah why is catastrophism not very widely accepted, it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me?
Catastrophism was once dominant in geology because people did not know the age of the Earth (except from study of the Bible) and they assumed that it was made a few thousand years ago. And if it was made that short a time ago only great upheavals of the Earth could form mountains. As science progressed that view began to change. Kelvin pushed the minimum age to 40 million years based upon thermodynamics. On an Earth that old you no longer need catastrophies to shape the land, slow and gradual processes suffice. And we can observe slow and gradual processes, but have not seen catastrophies. That was the original appeal, that you can *see* the changes in a uniformitarian view. Processes we see happening today most likely happened in the past, unless there is good reason to assume otherwise (which is rare). And when we model these processes happening over long time frames, we can use them to explain most of the geology we see today.
Hence the phrase, "The present is the key to the past", you look at what is happening today to try to understand processes that occured in the distant past.
With modern technology we can measure the annual growth of the Himalayan Mountains but we've never seen a mountain range be thrust up overnight. Plus, today we have things like varves, which are annual deposits in lakes made by the spring melt from nearby glaciers. They are like tree rings, and give us a record that goes back hundreds of thousands of years. We can study fossil pollen and volcanic ash preserved in those layers and find that, with the exception of ice ages, the Earth has been pretty much like it is today for as far back as those records go.
Of course uniformitarianism of the 1890s is not uniformitarianism of today because geologists have discovered in the last fifty years or so that catastrophies do occur. Very large volcanic deposits have been found in a few regions of the Earth and over a hundred impact craters are currently known to exist on the Earth. So the modern view is that most of Earth's geologic features are formed very very slowly, with an occasional catastrophe in between.
But now, to try and flip it over, with lots of recent catastrophies we would have to throw out most of the data geology has collected. We would have to throw out radiometric ages, we would have to throw out paleomagnetic data, and we would have to throw out varves. Plus we would have to explain why all those catastrophies suddenly stopped and how the effects of them on the life on Earth just vanished. For example, if there are 120 craters on Earth, and the Earth is six thousand years old, we should be getting a large new crater at least once every 50 years, but we haven't seen any. Or all the craters were formed at about the same time, but life somehow survived. But some of those craters are huge...one would seemingly kill most living things and change the Earth's climate for centuries afterward. So this is a problem with catastrophism - life on Earth is fragile.
So catastrophism is not popular because it would basically require geologists to assume all the data they have collected is wrong. It would also raise all sorts of other problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 11-29-2002 9:06 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3853 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 53 of 64 (25358)
12-03-2002 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tranquility Base
12-02-2002 6:10 PM


Does that not violate the 1LOT and the Laws of Conservation? Behold E=mc^2, change c and you change the energy content of matter. How is it possible?

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 Message 52 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-02-2002 6:10 PM Tranquility Base has replied

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gene90
Member (Idle past 3853 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 59 of 64 (25475)
12-04-2002 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by funkmasterfreaky
12-04-2002 2:31 PM


quote:
I have the feeling that our planet is actually going in the reverse process.
You're partly correct in that the Earth seems to have a life expectancy. But I see no signs of "devolution" in the fossil record.
There have been a few mass extinction events in Earth's history where the majority of species on Earth suddenly become extinct.
http://hannover.park.org/...useum/extinction/extincmenu.html
The most recent is the K/T event that doomed the dinosaurs, much of the photosynthesizers in the ocean, and just about every land animal that weighed more than about 50 kilograms. That is assuming that we are not living in a mass extinction right now (brought on by human ecological destruction).
Yet after every event that has run its course, new forms of life have occupied the ecological niches left open. Were that not so, basically the final chapter of Earth life would have been the end of the Permian, in which up 95% of species were destroyed.
quote:
Following the Permian mass extinction, life was abundant but there was a low diversity of species. However, through the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous, major faunal radiations resulted in a large number of new species and forms. New terrestrial fauna that made their first appearance in the Triassic included the dinosaurs, mammals, pterosaurs (flying reptiles), amphibians (including frogs and turtles). In addition, the first birds appeared in the Jurassic. Among the terrestrial flora, the gymnosperms of the Permian remained dominant until the evolution of the angiosperms (flowering plants) in the Cretaceous. In the Cretaceous there was also major radiations occurring in several esablished grounps including the the marine reptiles, rudist bivalves, ammonoids, belemnoids, and scleractinian corals. Bivalves, and brachiopods. Marine groups that were present but did not undergo major evolutionary expansion in the period included the gastropods,bryozoans, crinoids, sea urchins, and sponges.
From: http://hannover.park.org/.../Museum/extinction/cretmass.html
Oh by the way there is a disturbing error (typo?) in the above quote. Bonus points to anyone who spots it.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-04-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-04-2002 2:31 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-04-2002 7:29 PM gene90 has replied
 Message 61 by Chara, posted 12-04-2002 7:58 PM gene90 has not replied
 Message 62 by Quetzal, posted 12-05-2002 5:06 AM gene90 has not replied

  
gene90
Member (Idle past 3853 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 63 of 64 (25636)
12-05-2002 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Minnemooseus
12-04-2002 7:29 PM


That's the one. It doesn't bother me so much about getting the time of evolution of a group wrong because there's something of a continuum of transitionals. Not knowing the difference between a modern amphibian and a modern reptile is much more troubling.
By the way, I did not even notice the errors caught by Chara or Quetzal.
[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-05-2002]

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