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Author Topic:   To fund or not to fund - Are some science projects worth pursuing?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 2 of 74 (285987)
02-12-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-12-2006 4:02 PM


I think this is an interesting question. I was against the supercollider being built in Texas, but I was for the supercollider itself. It should have been constructed at Fermilab. Of course I am biased since I lived within walking distance of Fermi.
I do agree the space station was not worth it, yet hubble was.
To me, I think the criteria for spending large is some solid gain, and not to waste time on "baby steps" like the space station. Figure out what is wanted and shoot for that goal.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-12-2006 4:02 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 02-12-2006 5:28 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 5 of 74 (286071)
02-13-2006 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
02-12-2006 5:28 PM


I seem to recall that the physics community was pretty ambivalent about this project.
Is that the case at this point? From my understanding... which could be wrong... the US is now behind CERN because of our lack of funding. I was in a seminar course on antimatter by a US physicist when someone began asking questions about recent developments at CERN, and the guy totally went green with envy, before trying to downplay their results. And of course one of the problems is that we are not in a position to doublecheck their results, nor produce original results of our own.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Chiroptera, posted 02-12-2006 5:28 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by cavediver, posted 02-13-2006 7:10 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 22 by paisano, posted 02-19-2006 11:52 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 74 (286161)
02-13-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by cavediver
02-13-2006 7:10 AM


Re: The SSC
Over here in the UK, we were all (as in those of us in particle/theoretical physics)
Let me reduce this to a personal level for a second. I am considering a move back to fulltime science, and specifically theoretical physics, next fall.
I'm wondering if you feel such an investment of time and money would be valuable at this time? What kind of job outlook would there be for someone with such a degree, both in academia or outside (is there an outside for TPhysics)?
The program I am looking at will include time at CERN, but how reliant on such facilities is this field? You mention SSC's demise set you back years. Is it possible to enter the field and discover it becomes useless or stagnant due to lack of funding?

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by cavediver, posted 02-13-2006 7:10 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 02-13-2006 2:18 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 20 of 74 (288314)
02-19-2006 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Minnemooseus
02-19-2006 6:07 AM


Re: Government "pork" spending in the name of science
The main benefactors were the contractors building the thing.
Having worked in the gov't and specifically in science within the gov't, this issue is certainly a problem but it is not tied directly to any project. I believe the contracting system use by the US gov't must be reevaluated and altered severely.
It is my opinion, though based on seeing massive waste first hand, that the gov't could operate more efficiently and each project run at much smaller cost, by doing away with contractors and instead hiring people directly into an organization which does the research and builds material.
Right now contracting is used to pretend like the gov't isn't as big as it is. You "reduce" an org, but then must fulfill the service using contractors which cost more than having people in house to start with.
is that the results to be gained would jusitify the costs of maintaining it.
Putting the contractor issue aside (and yes the "pork" specifically to aid states, rather than research), I am not sure how the above can be measured on any specific project from the beginning in some objective fashion. What may seem esoteric and gains minimal to you, may actually have vast practical value and produce gains once discoveries are made.
I suppose that is the whole point of exploration in the first place. One cannot be sure if it is lost money, or something that will bring back riches. Some of the safe bets may be totally worthless, and some of the longshots turn out things we could not have foreseen in advance but change the world forever.
If I understood you correctly ou have suggested that studying the earth would be more practical than particle physics, yet the earth is made of particles. Everything is made of particles. Discovering their makeup may deliver insight into processes which allow us to create new materials and technologies. Especially in this case we are dealing with creation and control of matter/antimatter particles, which can help point to where the earth (universe) came from and what might lie in store in the future.
I agree that money is limited and practical concerns are important when selecting where to spend money. I just disagree that prime research is necessarily less practical. It may be a longer shot, but it also usually involves creation of new technology and its potential gains may be more than anything where the practical gains can be fully identified up front.
The space station differed from the SSC, in that it could have been replaced by something else (like a moon base) and achieved the same result. Or if we were going to mainly use robotic exploration of the solar system there was no point in it at all. The same cannot be said for the SSC. To continue in that direction of exploration of the universe we need to get higher tech, higher energy.
I guess this is to say the ISS was not crucial to space exploration, yet the SSC (or something along those lines) is crucial to elementary matter exploration.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-19-2006 6:07 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 23 of 74 (288356)
02-19-2006 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by paisano
02-19-2006 11:52 AM


Extensive participation by US physicists on experiments at CERN, and European physicists on experiments at Fermilab/SLAC, (and Asian physicists at both) are more the rule than the exception.
Well that's true but not exactly accurate regarding what I was trying to get at. Right now Fermi is incapable of reproducing or testing (fully) results obtained at CERN. Thus whoever is at Fermi and any other US based facility is limited, compared to those with access to CERN.
If for some reason CERN was shut down we could not take over where they left off. I don't think that's a credit to our standing in that field of science.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by paisano, posted 02-19-2006 11:52 AM paisano has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 44 of 74 (437277)
11-29-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Minnemooseus
11-29-2007 2:58 AM


Re: Bump for fgarb
This reminded me of this older topic I started.
You know when the question came to my mind, I thought of this thread and was like... maybe I'm starting to feel a bit like minnemoose. I wasn't sure where this thread was buried so I started my own.
I have to admit I'm still not convinced we are at a real end, but I'm wondering if a practical end can be reached and if it is felt... by those in the field... that these new findings have real world uses.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-29-2007 2:58 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 46 of 74 (437555)
11-30-2007 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by AnswersInGenitals
11-30-2007 2:09 AM


Re: The Bayh-Dole act.
Understanding the intricacies of these issues is one of the reasons this country is a republic and not a democracy.
And that explains why we put capable men like Bush in charge, and divert money to wholly faith-based programs?
Heheheh.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 11-30-2007 2:09 AM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

  
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