Matt 7:13, 14: Are most of us doomed?

Matt ch. 7: NIV at Matt 7:13, 14; NIV - The Narrow and Wide Gates - Enter - Bible Gateway;The Skeptics Annotated Bible offers this discussion of Matt 7:13, 14: SAB: Matthew 7I agree with the first statement that Jesus says most of us are going to hell. I'm not sure he's "OK" with it, considering all that he reportedly went through subsequently, however (i.e., the cruficixion and the events prior to it).(Note to admins: if this topic is being discussed as part of another thread, feel free to move this post there.)This message has been edited by DeclinetoState, 02-20-2006 01:50 PM

I have a suggestion if you are interested.Since this topic deals with the Book of Matthew also, would you like to combine it with your first topic? Start this topic there as a general reply?We can change the title of your first thread Matthew 27:9: Quoted from Jeremiah? to Bible Study on the Book of Matthew. Then place the original title in the subtitle.Then you can copy this new OP to a general reply in that thread with the Title as the subtitle. Make sense? (If yes, explain it to me because I think I confused myself )I thought if you had more you wanted to study concerning Matthew that this might be a good way to go.What do you think?

Would it be desirable to take all threads that discuss Matthew and put them together, or would there be so many subtopics floating around that it would be hard to keep track of who was replying to what?

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Would it be desirable to take all threads that discuss Matthew and put them together

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Not those from other originators. This idea is specific to you and the nature of the topics you are bringing up concerning Matthew.While we do want topics that are narrowly focused, there are some that don't generate 300 posts worth of discussion.Phat had one on Parables 101 which is in Coffee House because we didn't have a Bible Study forum at that time. A single parable probably wouldn't generate 300 posts. He didn't bring in the next parable until the first one stalled.I don't think you will have a problem with overlapping subtitles if you bring in the next verses you wish to discuss after the previous one stalls. Right now your first post has stalled.Since I promoted your first post I can edit my post #2 to give general directions necessary to the new purpose of the thread.If your intent is to start topics on a few verses of Matthew after one stalls, then you appear to be doing a Bible Study on Matthew, that's why I suggested redefining your current topic. You lead the Bible Study. When you feel it has stalled move to your next verse choice.This is just my suggestion, the choice is yours.You can talk with AdminPhat and get his opinion on whether this is a good idea for your topics or not.Let me know what you want to do.

Hey DTS! I think that it would be appropriate to have fewer topics IF they are addressing the same basic thing. As an example, my old Parables 101 topic was brought up by Admin P.D. and she encouraged me to revive it. It is a topic on Parables started by me, so I basically frame the issues.(In a Faith-based way, eventually! )Same with you. You started Matthew 27:9: Quoted from Jeremiah? in my opinion, this topic should be in Accuracy/Innerrency. Bible Studies are faith based, while Accuracy/Innerrency topics are scholasticly evidentually based.Anyway, what do you want to focus your study on? Evidence from scholastic sources or faith based interpretations of scripture?Thats the line that we are drawing regarding these kinds of topics.Any input?This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 02-15-2006 06:12 AM

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Although I have started two topics based on stuff in Matthew, I think they're looking at two different issues, and it's only coincidental that they're both from Matthew.The topic about Matt. 27:9 asks the question of whether the passage is truly inspired, since it claims to be quoting Jeremiah yet appears to be actually quoting Zechariah (and is so cross-referenced).My question about Matt 7:13, 14 accepts, at least for the time being, that Matt. 7 is accurately quoting Jesus; the question is what it says or seems to say about Christ's attitude toward hell. One skeptical commentator says that Jesus is saying two things: (1) most people are going to hell; and (2) he is "okay" with that. I would accept the first statement, unless someone in the course of this discussion or another discussion can show that Matthew's report of Christ's words was mistranslated (always a possibility, IMHO); however, the second statement seems to run counter to the whole point of the Passion.If it is determined that Matthew is not inspired scripture, then the issue becomes moot. However, I think the question of whether Matthew is or is not inspired scripture needs to be settled (if it can be) in the thread I started about ch. 27:9 - or in another thread, as the case may be. This thread that I have started is assuming, at least for the time being, that Matthew is inspired - or at least that it accurately represents Jesus' views about hell. If we determine that Matthew's gospel does not accurately report what Jesus said, then the question of what Jesus said as reported in Matthew is irrelevant, since we would have no reason to believe Jesus said it at all.

These are, IMHO, both accuracy/Inerrency topics. In that forum, you can freely discuss scholars opinions of meaning based on science and on logic.In order to qualify for a Bible Study, the topics must be preassumed to be a valid philosophy by an author not under examination.Bible Studies are Faith based.Accuracy/Innerrency is empirically fact/scientifically theological studies based.

I will promote this to Bible Study if you wish to discuss what the verses are saying from a religious standpoint and not skeptical. From what you have said so far it sounds like you wish to look at it from a religious standpoint.

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the question is what it says or seems to say about Christ's attitude toward hell. One skeptical commentator says that Jesus is saying two things: (1) most people are going to hell; and (2) he is "okay" with that.

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From my viewpoint this was not clear in your OP.I understood the discussion to be about whether the verse said most people were going to hell or not.I feel that you need to reword your position and intent for discussion. I would also suggest that you place the question at the beginning of the OP and follow with the links and reasons for your question and point of view. I don't feel people should have to wait until the end to find out what the discussion is about.Your point about why you feel Jesus wasn't OK with most people going to hell isn't a complete sentence.I also suggest you change the Title to reflect what you want to discuss, which seems to be: Christ's attitude towards Hell.

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I would accept the first statement, unless someone in the course of this discussion or another discussion can show that Matthew's report of Christ's words was mistranslated (always a possibility, IMHO); however, the second statement seems to run counter to the whole point of the Passion.

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Now this comment is probably what leads AdminPhat to want this in Bible A&I, which I would agree.If you want to discuss this from a theological stance, which means Jesus did make the comment, then it needs to stay that way no matter what is said in another thread.Needless to say I need you to be very clear on what you want out of this topic. Right now the OP does not, IMO, reflect the intent you stated in your last post.

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The topic about Matt. 27:9 asks the question of whether the passage is truly inspired,

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That was not the question in the OP or I would have put it in A&I. So it isn't going to get resolved in that thread.

I have added a subtitle to the original post to include the comment about Jesus' views regarding how many people are going to hell. I don't really want to change my OP in any other way, however, since responses have already been made to what I put there.The question of whether Matthew accurately reflected what Jesus taught or believed is, at least for now, tangential to the question I have posted, though discussions may lead us to visit that issue.When Jesus said that many would go to destruction, did he mean that many who professed to be Christians would be destroyed, or did he mean that the vast majority of people in the world would not be Christians? Taking the latter view, which I think most Protestants and Catholics do, we are still left with the problem of probably millions of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust now roasting in hell (assuming that's what Jesus meant by "destruction"), even though at least most Christians are saved. OTOH, if we take the view, as some small Christian sects (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) do, that only members of their particular religious group will go to heaven (or survive the "Great Tribulation," in the case of the Witnesses), we get a position that is not necessarily politically correct but nonetheless seems to be consistent with a fairly literal interpretation of Jesus' words as recorded in Matthew.I am not comfortable with any position that I can articulate on this question. I am not comfortable with the idea that God-fearing Jews who died in the Holocaust are burning in hell because they didn't believe in Jesus Christ. I'm not comfortable with the idea that Hindus, Buddhists, or even Muslims who have lived a good life and treated others with kindness (and/or been mistreated by others for no good reason) are going to burn forever in hell--or even be sent to the "second death" (whatever that is--but again, that's probably a topic for another thread) simply because they were not Christians. OTOH, I'm not keen on the idea of rejecting the passage and accepting "universal salvation"--which some professing Christians seem to believe in--since, if Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin get to go to heaven in spite of all the horrendous suffering they caused, what's the point of being or doing good, or even believing in Jesus? Similarly, believing that all people, good or bad, are going to simply die and that's the end of it (i.e., the most likely atheistic position) also is problematic.

Thread copied to the Are Most Of Us Doomed? (Matt 7:13-14) thread in the Faith and Belief forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.