The Fact of Death

quote:

---

From your Message 5 In Buddhism all that arises or is born must pass away or die. Only the birthless never dies. The death that we fear may be our salvation, which releases us from our dream of separation. This of course is the goal of Tibetan Buddhism, to awaken at death to the "ground luminosity" of primordial consciousness.

​

And from your Message 9...the practise is to be prepared to enter the clear light of one's original nature rather than cling to sense pleasures etc.

---

I've always found Buddhist language obscure to the point of obfuscating. Do you feel you understand what "the clear light of one's original nature" or the "'ground luminosity' of primordial consciousness" means well enough to trust that that's what you will experience after death? Or do these things imply experience at all? And if not, how is it different from the idea that death is just the cessation of all consciousness that so many atheists believe in?Buddhism also recognizes hells, I understand, a variety of hells or places of torment, or some versions of Buddhism do, suggesting that death isn't always a happy thing or a "salvation." Isn't there some idea that it takes quite a bit of work to achieve the degree of detachment that frees you from such consequences?

Questions I'd like to see addressed: What is death? {EDIT: meaning the reason for death, the cause of death, why we die. What are the different views of death? Is it pretty universally understood to be a natural thing, as in, all things that are born die. How many religions, traditions, cultures, etc. believe that there is an afterlife? How common throughout history and across cultures is the idea that death is the end of consciousness, as in the lights go out and that's that, no more person, no more anything -- or is this pretty much a modern notion? For those who believe in an afterlife, how is it possible to know anything about what it will be like? Etc.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-14-2005 02:37 AM

I think I may have read Bernadette Roberts' book during the period I was seeking God years ago. I don't remember her name but I remember a book by an ex-nun who had Buddhist type experiences.I don't get what is ATTRACTIVE about these vague notions of what comes after death. Or what makes them believable to anybody. I find the idea of a sort of merging into an indistinguishable oneness as a "no-self" not the slightest bit attractive, bliss and peace and the works. And as for believability, why trust anybody's near-death experiences at all to point to anything real? There isn't just one kind people have for one thing, and what is there about an experience that makes it believable? Isn't everybody here always railing about how objective fact is needed to give us a solid ground for anything we take to be true? So how can anyone believe such experiences are something to be sought?

Also, I think that since so many cultures have acknowledged a Place of the Dead or a Place of Torment after death that there has to be more to it than inventions for the purpose of teaching life lessons.

Not sure "so many cultures" did believe the world was flat -- no reason to think the Hebrews did for instance -- but in any case it wasn't a bad inference from the available information at the time.Concerning the afterlife there may be reason to believe that people USED to know more than we do now.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-14-2005 08:27 PM

But a belief in what comes after death surely is no casual thing, involving questions of eternal life or misery as it does, quite unlike a liking for golf. I'm surprised you would reach for such an inept comparison.

Didn't miss it, there may in fact be many other ideas to be considered. I was simply emphasizing those that should MATTER to a person, that make the question of what happens after death of great importance. Eternal nothingness doesn't really appeal to anybody but it isn't scary as eternal misery is.

Aaarrgh (cry of despair). OK I won't hound you about this but you have absolutely NO basis for believing that eternal nothingness is to be your lot after death. That is what I mean that it matters that other views, which in fact have predominated in the history of the human race, be given more thought than the usual ill-considered brush-off they get from Modern Man.

Oy!(Sorry. Don't mind me).

Jesus was not merely a teacher. He was the culmination of a previous 2000-year training of a particular people in the character and plans of the One God who made all things. He was the Savior promised to the human race all the way back in Eden and on up through the Israelite prophets. He came to die more than to teach. He came to establish his credentials -- as the promised Savior and in fact as the very God revealed in the Old Testament Himself -- and then die that others might live -- a completely new life as a "new creation" since the old creation had fallen. He came to undo the fall in Adam, to end death forever -- a task that will be completed upon his second coming. To compare Him to any mere religious teacher is ludicrous. "Awakening?" "Enlightenment?" The ideas are meaningless by comparison with the reality of Jesus Christ.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-16-2005 02:35 AM

quote:

---

Faith
. Eternal nothingness doesn't really appeal to anybody but it isn't scary as eternal misery is.

​

Eternal misery is what I equate eternal life with.Just contemplate never having an end to existence.Trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years and no let up.Whatever length of time you wish to consider has no meaning on the scale of infinite.What do you suppose you could occupy yourself with on such a scale?

---

Unimaginable glories.

Who said anything about vistas. Life in eternity will be so different from our mortal life here it is unimaginable. I trust God who knows the human frame He created in His own image to know how to occupy me for all eternity engaging all the capacities, faculties, desires, interests, abilities, talents He gives me.But most of it will be joy in His very presence. Psalm 16:11: You will show me the path of life: in Your presence [is] fulness of joy; at Your right hand [there are] pleasures for evermore.

When I became a Christian I stopped thinking in terms of human nature as we experience it. What we experience is fallen, flawed, diseased, death-ridden, a mere shadow of what we were originally created to be. Our current condition is a pathetic sickly thing compared to what it was originally. Adam died because of his sin, but even so he lived over 900 years. The generations that followed Adam continued to live for hundreds of years, the lifespan gradually decreasing, showing the accumulation of sin and the consequences of sin (as scripture says, "the wages of sin is death.") There was still a great deal of vigor in the human race -- and no doubt all life -- that lessened over time (which certainly has implications for evolutionism and genetics etc but I'm not going there).What we COULD be is not knowable from what we are.

quote:

---

What we experience is fallen, flawed, diseased, death-ridden, a mere shadow of what we were originally created to be.

​

Faith, we've only just met, but I feel you know me already!

​

But seriously... I understand. In fact, your response answers some questions I had about a post from buz (on another thread) (I'll catch up with you next time buz!).

​

Anyway, I don't think I can add anything to what you've said. Thanks for the reply!

---

Um, did I have a Senior Moment and post on some other forum by mistake?I'm floored. What did you find so congenial about what I said? I was expecting all manner of objections (if anything at all). Of course a pleasant reception is quite welcome, even if puzzling, so thanks.Very curious what Buz said on that other thread.

Yes, I went back through the archives and dug this up. You ask the real questions. This one didn't get the attention it deserved. I agree with everything you said in your OP. I thought a lot like you at one time. But things are so completely different now. Although I would like to be able to discuss that frame of mind to some extent, I don't know if I can any more. God reached down and plucked me out of it. It was a tremendous event, a total upheaval, an overturning of everything. It is hard to get back to there from here. Both because I don't remember too clearly how I used to think, and because I know that the answer to everything is Jesus Christ, and am anxious to communicate that.Accomplishment does seem to be the goal of life for most of us, and if we fail to reach it we experience the disappointment in ourselves you are talking about.And yes, the great tragedy of life IS the fact that we must die.BUT: Somebody at EvC recently said he didn't like Augustine. Was that you? If so, you won't appreciate his answer to your question:"Our hearts are restless till they find their rest in thee."As the Westminster Catechism says: "The chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever."Robin, we are all immortal souls, God is real, He offers eternal life, how do I convince you?This message has been edited by Faith, 12-29-2005 03:53 AM