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Author Topic:   On Kinds... again.
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 63 (63672)
10-31-2003 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Jack
10-29-2003 5:02 AM


15: Every raven after his kind;
16: And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind
So if a cuckow population evolved into something resembling a raven, would that count as macroevolution, or rather evolution between kinds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Jack, posted 10-29-2003 5:02 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 63 (64544)
11-05-2003 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by mendy
11-04-2003 9:43 PM


Re: kind
So why the exact numbers? you could ask - if its a miracle, why bother building a 'boat' at all? G-d could just stick him on a cloud or something..i think a principle is G-d 'hides' miracles...under natural events...so he made noah build this ark but a miracle will occurr causing a woman to have all her pitchers fill miraculouly with oil - but she had to start with a little oil..miracles dont go on nothing [i think thats a talmudical statement]because in this physicla world -G-d hides his presence [to retain our free choice and even by miracles there has to 'appear' a natural explanation]......
My personal understanding is that God needed a sign of faith before Noah could be saved. That sign was building the Ark and the ridicule that Noah had to endure.
As to the numbers of animals, it is quite obvious to me that it is rooted in Numerology. You know, the Sabbath is the seventh day, 14 generations from Adam to David and 14 generations from David to Jesus (7x2, I believe this is the geneology in Luke), 7 good deeds 7 times. Seven is a very holy number to Jewish numerologists. Therefore seven of all the clean animals and so forth.
But I still don't understand the need to hide miracles. Surely the death of the firstborn preceding the Exodus was not precieved as a natural occurence. Do you think God was allowing the Pharoah free will when he killed his first born? Was Jonah given free will when he was swallowed by a fish?
But, this is the christian viewpoint that I grew up with and was taught in college.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mendy, posted 11-04-2003 9:43 PM mendy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by mendy, posted 11-06-2003 8:56 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 63 (65014)
11-07-2003 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by mendy
11-06-2003 8:56 PM


Re: kind
um..no offense but there are way more than 14 generations form adam to david.... from adam to moses is exactly 26 generations.... and then i'd have to look it up but id guess another 4-8 gens...so guess 30 or so... but not 14, no way.
You are absolutely correct, I was kind of winging it from memory. It's been 10 years since I took New Testament so most of the information is a little hazy. What I was actually alluding to was in Mathew 1:17 "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations."
I believe Mathew was written for the Jewish community to show them that Jesus of Nazareth had fulfilled the Messianic (sp?) prophecies, hence the 14 generational thing.
I understand that you don't don't read the New Testament, in fact you probably don't like the term Old Testament. I was just using this as an example of the numerology in the Bible.
as for 7 being an important number -- yes, bc its tied to the seventh day of sabbath, 7 year of shemittah [agricultural rest] and 7x7 yrs=jubilee -rest again...all the rest is a way of admitting that there is a G-d... so is there a tie between resting and the idea of sabbath and impure animals? i dont see it....do you?
Seven is just a holy number, period. That its applied to rest does not preclude it from being applied to other things, IMO. Oh, and the seven good deeds seven times, can't find it. Must be a figment of my over imaginative mind. I did however type in "seven times" as a keyword search on an online bible sight and found numerous passages with that phrase in it. Most of them do not relate to the Sabbath or Jubilee, a lot of them from the Torah.
as for the diea of 'covering' miraceles- if a perosn sees a direct miracle - ie G-d talks to you -how can you then even have to struggle to search and find belief in G-d? theres no choice any mroe..so the point of life in a sens eis over....in a sense theres no test.... so G-d hides it in a way so that man, who rationalisez everything, will try to rationalize it....and nowhe must choose between being logical or rationalizing it away....the choice, the test is kept....
I understand your logic, but it still seems selective when looking at events in Jewish history, which you hint at here . . .
[1] the exxodus story and generation -ther ethe point was to instill into one generation so many open miracles to utterly convince the jews thatt hre is G-d. From this one moment [or 40 yr moment of living in amiracle -how can 3,000,000 people survive ina desert for 40 yrs?] they carrid to the world the firm belief in G-d, so much so that in our time we need whole webstire to fight against this belief, since its so ingrained.... so that generation did its job well....but even they had a free willl...the choice of whether to obey....thats why their punishemnts are worse for smaller infracirons.. the more you now G-d, the closer you are, the more he expects from you....
My memory is a little hazy, but didn't the Sun stop for Joshua's army? I think obvious miracles happened after the wandering in the dessert. I could be wrong, correct me if I am.
jewishj though has it that all of existnece is in fact a miracle, but were so used to everythin that it becomes'noraml' why should our planet be in 'just' the right orbit to sustain life..not too close to the sun...not too far..and we just happen to have th eatmosphere we need.and the water... and the rain cycles...etc etc etc..right? a dead seed when given water and dunlight all of a sudden lives....a miracle..no its "nature"...its 'supposed' to be that way...think about it...yet we find no other life anywhere in the universe..and im no expert [hey experts..please correct me i want to leanr] but i dont think theyve found any planet or sattelite anywhere as conducive to life as ours...mars? europa? venus..ccrushing pressure, killer gases....
Interesting hypothesis, and I think it is covered on another recent thread, so I will be brief. If life were found off of Earth, what would this mean to your interpretation of the Torah or Jewish interpretations of life? It's an interesting topic, if just for debate.
It's great that you are one this site, it gets a little bland with all of the christian fundamentalists sometimes. Hope you post more. BTW, I hope I didn't offend you in anyway, I'm more curious than judgmental.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by mendy, posted 11-06-2003 8:56 PM mendy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by mendy, posted 11-12-2003 8:42 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
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