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Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Cartoons and common sense | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Ya know, If allah really gave a rat's ass about some dumb cartoons, don't you think he could burn down his own embassy?
Radical islamists, and Islam in general, need to grow up. It's time to join the 21st century. Grow a sense of humor, a thicker skin, and stop taking any BS opportunity to blow something western up. I'm not saying that's the entirety of islam, but when I see someone stand up for this kind of asinine behavior, or attempt to justify it, it makes me sick. The world is a whole lot bigger than your silly little beliefs (not you specifically, but everyone in general, and islam in particular). If god is real, I'm sure he can hold his own without a bunch of idiot zelots torching buildings and making women wear bee keeper suites (thx to Bill Mhar on that one). This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-06-2006 04:56 PM
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
I don't see how you could possibly make a case for psychological damage on this one. If they were 'psychologicaly' damaged by some dumb cartoons, in a country far FAR away from them, then they obviously have bigger issues.
Most countries in the 'civilized' world protect satire. Which is what a cartoon amounts to, a joke. All this proves is that islamists, and fundamentalist islamic nations, can't take a joke. I think it's funny how some of the govts. involved petitioned the danish govt. to shutdown the newspaper in question. Goes to show the warped concept of freedom of speach and freedom of the press some of those regimes have. This is all a display of ignorance at it's finest.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Ahem... mohammed is not allah. They are objecting to the insulting depiction of an important person. That said, if anyone burned down an embassy then technically allah did do it. Nothing happens without his will. Yep. Ain't that a convenient excuse? Yet more evidence that it is all soooo stupid.
The 21st century? You mean the one where a religious state from ~2000 years ago must be impressed onto an indigenous population of muslims by force of arms because the God of extremist Jews and Xians said so? Look at how much has been blown up in the MidEast by Xians within both the 20th and 21st century and it makes what "they" have blown up pale in comparison. It might also be noted that we (the west) empowered the religious fanatics over the moderates within Afghanistan, and helped moderates turn to extremism in Iran by cheating and alienating them. I guess being blownup, shot at, disenfranchised, and impoverished left them with a thinner skin and thinner sense of humor. I'm with you there bud.... up to a point... I think the whole mideast needs a brain overhawl including the jews, western policy, muslems, etc. All of it. It needs to go. The theocratic mindset that permiates the countries in that region is anathema to human progress.
As much as I was not happy seeing what was happening over these cartoons, and in fact still support their creation and publication, I am more dismayed by the behavior of supposedly rational people, betraying a bigotry and ignorance regarding what is happening and what it means about Islam or Islamic people. This is simply an example of fanaticism that one can see anywhere in any culture, as long as you provide the right insult. Yes, I agree with you too. But wouldn't you agree that some cultures (beliefs) are more prone to it than others? It just sort of ticks me off where people say things like: "Oh, it's understandable that they torched the embasy, it's insulting to them, blah blah blah." It's just stupid at that point.
Uh, what do bhurkas have to do with this? Does it make you feel good to beat up people over cultural differences? Nah, I'm speaking about the theocracies that support that sort of practice. That promote instatutional ignorance and gender (racial?) inequality. That's what I'm speaking about, and the whole burka thing is a prime example.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
You totally misunderstand Islam. No I don't. It's a fairy story mixed with history about a nomadic bandit and goat herder who wanted to be rich and famous. Then the whole thing got out of hand.
The Quran is the equivalent of what you call law. HAHAH! No it's not. It's a dumb ass book written way to long ago to even consider it relevant to our day and time.
A Muslim's purpose in life if obedience to the law. Maybe he should find another purpose, that way he could be happier.
The cartoons violate what is written. Fuck what is written. What is written was written by a bunch of goat herders in a desert somewhere in the middle east. I could care less, and you shouldn't care either.
What you call violence is what some Muslims call justice. Fuck them too. They are idiots. Riots and destruction over some pen and ink? Get a life! I don't hate moslems, I don't support the USA's policy's, but I will call a spade a spade. The fact is that the extremist ideology, and theocratic mindset, is a throwback to the days of mohammed and his sand-pirates.
Maybe in your terms, fire is an expression of free speech. No it's not, it's called violence. Speech comes from the mouth and the pen. Maybe if mohamed used more of that, instead of his scimitar, these extremists wouldn't have such a stupid example to follow.
Yes, your picture offends me. Isn't the free world amazing? We can draw pictures of whatever we want. We even draw nasty pictures of ourselves! We draw nasty pictures of our president, our religious figures, jesus, and who ever else we damn well please... and you know why? STICKS AND STONES WILL BREAK MY BONES, BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT ME!
You are a child who shows no respect for others. I show no respect for stupidity. I show no respect for a mentality that says "if you doodle a funny picture of my favorite sky man, I'll kill you!". Screw that man. That's BS.
Is this your culture? Yes it is, and proud. Hopefully, the longer you live in the USA, you will appreciate it more and more. This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-06-2006 07:27 PM
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Very good post brenna.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
I think I already vented my spleen enough. Sorry for the outburst, the news of these things has made me more mad than usual. I will refraim from participating in this thread unless in a civil tone.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
I see. So you are against cultural diversity and would like to see all people forced into one mindset, so that people only get offended by what offends you? Hey, I agree that to my mindset they are thinking in ways that I do not, and do not have an interest in thinking. But I actually enjoy diversity and that means learning to give and take on differences. Fanatics will exist on all sides and the main idea is to not feed the extremists by alienating the moderates. In the East it is offensive to walk into houses with shoes on. Should I then tromp around their house with my shoes on and when they react negatively tell them how silly they are, because we can do that in the West? This is an interesting point holmes. And I often struggled with it myself. Because I too like cultural diversity, different ideas, etc. But I can't say that every culture deserves equal respect, or should be tolarated and preserved. Imagine we had Cannibals from New Guinea living in New York. Do we need to respect their cultural identety by allowing them to kill and eat people? What about the Aztecs? Heck, what about theocratic minded Christians who want to go back to the OT as a law book? I don't think those mentalities are to be tolerated or respected. When I look at the Mideast, and I think of the way they treat women, the way the punish crime, the way they indoctrinate their young, I don't think "What a beautiful culture.", I think they need to get their head out their butt and join the modern world. So no. I don't respect any of them or their ideologies because what they want, is far from pluralism, they want to stifle individuality and imped human progress and wellbeing. And in this case, I am not talking about the moderates, I am talking about the majority over there. Like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and even Palestine, (and now increasingly Iraq). And this has nothing to do with me, it has to do with all of us. If humans want a brighter future we have to let go of fanaticism, ignorance, and superstition. I think we can all agree to that.
Progress for you, but necessarily for them. I would agree that Taliban style gov'ts should be fought as much as possible but not all theocracies are like that. Lets look at Iran. How were the people doing under our dictator? Much progress under that? How about after the people held a revolution and installed their theocracy? I think its safe to say that they really are progressing. They have a culture and it is moving along. Oh its not what I want, but neither is everything I find in western nations either. Again, I am no fan of US foreign policy, but I am no fan of Iran either. I don't need to respect them, their govt., or their culture. Because it is backward, and counterproductive to human progress. It promotes hatred, intolerance, ignorance, and superstition. I would never uphold their rights to behave that way in the name of pluralism.
That there may be more extremists/fanatics in poor or oppressed regions is not a surprise to me. Given the widespread nature of Islam, particularly in areas recently run over by western nations, it does not surprise me that many poor and oppressed people are Islamic. I have to admit I was surprised that extremists would care this much about cartoons in Denmark, but yes if upset it is understandable that extremists would do something like torch an embassy. My guess is that extremists are using this as a pretext to rile up moderates and gain power. One might note the very small numbers actually involved in these demonstrations, and fewer still taking parts in the "riots" given the rather large populations of muslims in those areas. Perhaps some perspective is in order. I've been to larger protests against Bush, and seen larger ones against WTO. What do people at WTO protests do? That's peaceful? I don't think this is a tit for tat kind of situation. I also don't think it is merely extremists. It's all pervasive over there. And it's not necessarily their fault. Their very govt. promotes the kind of hatred and intolerance that is expressed in moments like this. I also don't condone violence at WTO protests either.
You know some women actually do choose to wear the bhurka and some believe it should be worn. And how are those that don't want to and must, any different from western women that would rather not wear clothes over any other part of their body and must? These are merely cultural differences. Look at how upset you seem to be about how others choose to live. When you ask why they should be upset about how we choose to live (free expression, including insulting and libelous satire), why should you be upset about how they choose to live (stricter dress codes and speech rights)? Maybe a problem with the west is that while making pretenses toward civilization and equality of ideas, we in fact spend most of our time poking our noses into other people's cultures and then insulting or try to change them. I agree that we shouldn't be poking our noses into other peoples cultures. But again, I don't have to respect a stupid culture when I see one. I will gladly call a spade a spade. I don't have to say the Aztec culture was just as good as ours and that human sacrifice was just a nice form of cultural pride. It was barbaric, ignorant, and stupid. Just like the burkah and all it symbolizes. This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-07-2006 10:18 AM
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
The Times & The Sunday Times
How mature And a perfect example of how this hatred is institutional. After all, newspapers in iran are state run. This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-07-2006 10:23 AM
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Page not found – The Sun
Ah, the wonders of a pluralistic society with many beutiful and vibrant cultures living together in peace. What a beutiful culture:
This one is especialy charming (NOTE: the hat):
Freedom of speach allows them to do this, and I actually support it. It let's them make total asses out of themeselves.
Finaly:
Again, I will call a spade a spade, these people are stupid, ignorant, zelots and idiots. They need a brain transplant in the worst way. And nothing anyone says will ever make me respect them.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Ever feel like you were dancing to someone elses tune? Maybe. I see your point, but at the same time I cannot help feeling people are a bit to ready to 'embrace' and 'look past the extreamists' etc. I don't advocate violence, I advocate education. These people, these extreamists, need to learn about the history of their religion, society, and the development of the western world. Their view on things is so hopelessly warped that there is no real grounds to rationalize at this point. I also don't see why we should be expected to respect their views on any level. As I posted to holms, why would we respect a people with beliefs so reprehensible and ideas so backward? Would we respect the aztecs and their practices? I just think we need to be more realistic on the issue. It's not extremists. It's a pervaisve ideology in their culture, rooted in their history, and their religion.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
A noble goal indeed. But is there anything that is "educational" in your posts? Yes. That people don't need to feel they need to respect any culture, or idea, that comes along in the name of pluralism. That islamists, and moslems in general, need to actually learn real history outside of the koran. That irrational beliefs and superstitions need to be abandoned if we ever want peace. Maybe I should open a thread about that.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
It is pretty clear that some around here are suggesting that Islamic outrage and activity in this instance is somehow qualitatively different than what Xians have done. Both Yaro and Pars are good examples. Oh no, that's not my position. I think there are plenty of wackjob christians that go crazy over stupid crap. Like "the last temptation of christ". I think they are a bunch of idiots too
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
I actually answered this already in my Coffee House thread titled Cultural diversity v Human rights (or vice versa). I am not arguing that one must like other cultures, nor that one allow anything to happen within their own nation. Cultural diversity is about accepting that others may have other ways of doing things, not that you must like them or commit suicide to obey them. Ok, we are in agreement here.
The point here is that whether you like Islam or not, the rioters are not necessarily demonstrative of all Islam or most Islam. Neither are they different from other fanatics from any other group. Yeah, they may get upset about things that most in the west would not, or act out in slightly different ways. But that doesn't make them less civilized. See, this may be out of scope for this thread, but islam is a violent religion in as much as Judism and Christianity is. The inherent flaw is a teaching that the creator of all that exists has given you special favor over everyone else. The reason I say this is uncivilized, is because beliefs like this threaten civilization as a whole. And I am not talking about moslems, I am talking about all religions. The minute we give up our rational thought and begin beliving we have claim to divine truth, is the minute we start taking to the streets and stoneing people and torching buildings. And while I agree that different civilizations may have different ways of going about things, I don't agree that all of them are equal. I think, as time goes by, a 'natural selection' of sorts will weed out backward cultures.
Ancient Japan allowed instant murder for insults, because courtesy was so highly valued that insults were equivalent psychologically to a physical attack. Am I supposed to say Ancient japan was not civilized? As far as I can tell they were way more civilized than the west at that time, and may still be compared to some "civilizations" today. Note my emphasis. Thank goodness most nations have left behind these mideival concepts of honor. (or have they?). Just to head things off, I don't think the USA is perfect, or Europe, or any western nation. We have dumb laws, dumb customs, etc. But I can surely make a value judgment based on which society produces happier, more productive, people. I certainly don't see that comming from the moslem world.
An interesting note on your cannibal example, Germany is wrestling with the question of wholly western cannibals right now. Apparently not only do some people want to eat others, but some want to be eaten. I am still wrestling with the moral/legal issue around this myself. Ya, I think it's interesting too. But I think the main point was that the other guy agreed to get eaten, throwing it into an odd grey area . In any case, I don't think anyone is considering allowing cannibals to stalk the subways with spears and tranquilizer darts.
You don't have to like the way they live, you just have to accept that that is how they live and view things. That is after all, what you are asking from them, correct? Actually there are some very beautiful things to come out of Islam, and some great science. I wouldn't want to live according to their customs, but what does that matter? First, it's fine if they keep it in their own country etc. As I said before, I think time will have the better culture overtake the lesser. I see this being done by example and not by the fist. As far as why it matters, it matters because a large population of the world is of the mindset that the other part is not selected by god. They don't respect the very things you are advocating holms. And they promote ignorance and superstition over rationality. I'm sorry to say that this affects us all, such beliefs (no matter where they are manifested) hold us back.
As far as your tirade, the MidEast as it stands now is the product of western pressure. We decimated their nations repeatedly during British colonialism and then US cold war. The rise of Iranian hardline Islam was a direct result of our forcing a dictatorship on them. In afghanistan the Taliban and AQ were set in power and trained to do what they do (terrorism) by the US itself. Agree wholeheartedly. But it goes further back than that. This goes way back to the crusades and to the moorish invasion, and to probably mohammed himself. One group of fanatics agrevating the other back and fourth untill this very day and age. We got one group of fanatics in the white house, another in israel, and then a whole slew fanatics in the middle east. The problem of Islam, is a problem we see everywhere, supperstitious, ignorant people who want to impose their silly beliefs on everyone else.
Join the modern world on things like women's rights? That's exactly what was going on in Afghanistan until the US empowered the religious zealots to defeat the soviets. If you are looking for where to place blame it comes right back to us. Yep, and arguably, we are the reason the saudis are still in power, and the isrealies are a bunch of jerks. And I agree with you. Still doesn't mean that the fundamentalist theocratic way of thinking isn't dumb and a bad model for a society.
And as far as modern world goes, why are we suggesting they accept it, when at the same time we say they must accept Israel because God gave the jews the land thousands of years ago? Yep, I think the people who say that are stupid, and the jews themselves are a bunch of numbnuts. I'm saying all these people, need to wake up and throw away their holy books. The minute they all realize that we are all the same, we are all human beings, on this little ball of dirt in space, then maybe we can start talking about getting along. But I don't see how we can ever expect peace when there are groups of people in this world that whole-heartedly belive that the very universe was made solely for them.
I'm sorry, what do you know what the majority populations are like over there? Have you been there? Do you have friends from there? No, I don't. But last I checked there was quite a rash of theocratic regimes in power.
How about Israel? How many of the Israelis are moderate v fanatic? How about the US... how many are Xian fanatics? Would moderates in the nations you mentioned be right if they assumed what our populations are like? I can tell you that there are enough fanatics in all those countries to exact devastating political influence. We are suffering it here, in israel, and the moslem world.
So you do not believe that people should be able to determine for themselves what constitutes progress and worthy of obtaining? You believe we should invade other nations in order to impose a singular culture? No. They can do what they want as long as they don't go bombing my buildings or threatening my life. I also don't have to say that their culture is any good. If they have a detestable culture I will gladly say so.
Great, but what does that say about the demonstrators at such protests? Are they all to be painted one color? Are they to be punished communally? No. But I think the protests we have seen over this are just the manifestation of a deeper problem. This violence has been going on long before there even was a WTO.
You don't have to respect it. You just have to respect the rights of others to have their culture, especially within their own nations. Again, that's fine. I don't want them bombing my cities or threatening my life. I also don't think we should be bombing theirs.
Stupidity of a culture is relative. There are no objective "spades" to be called a "spade". Personally I find most monotheists and cultures (or cultural artifacts) based on monotheism to be unhealthy or contrary to most human nature. Especially zealots within those cultures. That does not make their cultures any less a culture or "civilized". I disagree. I think we can say something is stupid when it is blatantly untrue and contrary to reality. A culture that is based on such things, will be a stupid culture. An islamic society which says a woman can be stoned to death for showing her ankles, a man can be buldozed over if he is gay, or a theif should have his hands and feet cut off for stealing, is a stupid society. And we can go into details of why that is if you want.
I don't like what they do and want to do what I like is something honest to say. They are uncivilized and I am truly better is an ignorant thing to say. I think we can say one culture is better than another. Is there a thread on this? It's actually an interesting question and I think it's where this is headed anyway.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
- Islamic law would be derived from the Quran, which the majority of people support. This is an issue with all religious govt's. Who gets to interpret the Quran to come up with the laws? Sounds like a civil war to me EDIT: Some examples: Wahhabism:
quote: Sunni:
quote: Shi'a:
quote: (all quotes from the wiki) I don't see how you could hope to make a stable govt. out of this with each group considering the next group over heretical. This message has been edited by Yaro, 02-07-2006 02:55 PM
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6526 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
What are you talking about? It seems the moslems were over reacting since the get go. Heck, bullet no. 3 is death threats to the cartoonists!
It started out peacefull, but it seems to have escalated, and not because of the danish. It seems to have something to do with the delegation of Imams.
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