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Author Topic:   Eco-Guilt
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 3 of 67 (512636)
06-19-2009 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
06-19-2009 10:26 AM


Global Warming is a fact. The warming trend is directly correlated with the amount of CO2 in the air. We have been pumping CO2 into the air for a long time now. Even if we aren't the sole cause of Global Warming, it's obvious we're not making things better. If we can reduce the amount of CO2 we add to the system, we might be able to help. If nothing else, we'll reduce the amount of smog and asthma causing irritants in the air while stimulating new businesses and innovation. Can you tell me where the downside is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2009 10:26 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by subbie, posted 06-19-2009 8:17 PM Perdition has replied
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2009 8:31 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 61 of 67 (512944)
06-22-2009 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by subbie
06-19-2009 8:17 PM


Correlation does not prove causation.
I've seen some scientists suggest that increased temperature is causing the increase in CO2, rather than the other way around. What evidence is there that the causation goes the direction you believe, beyond the correlation?
I'm fully aware that correlation does not prove causation. Just like the correlation between people standing in front of speeding semis and then being dead doesn't prove that standing in front of speeding semis causes death. However, until more information comes in, I'm going to try and get out of the way.
CO2 goes up when temperatures go up. CO2 has a well documented and understood mechanism for raising the temperature. Raising the temperature can also release more CO2 (or more probably, methane, which acts similarly). Our actions are adding CO2 (and methane) into the environment. Even with no other evidence, do I think we should try and reduce the CO2 and methane we're adding? Yes. Do I think the media is using extreme language to try and sell newspapers or commercials, yes. How is that different from everything else they report on? Does the fact that they find the loonies out there (on both sides of the issue) and have a "debate" mean that the whole thing is a joke and we shouldn't do anything? I don't think so.
As others have pointed out, it doesn't matter how much we're affecting the temperature. It seems very probable that we are, but even if we aren't, the benefits of "going green" would seem to be enough, even without bringing in the GW debate. I don't see why people would be against it, unless it's just because they don't like the hysteria that a very vocal minority employ to get their 15 minutes and some cash. If that's the whole reason, then it seems childish and petulant in the extreme.

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 Message 5 by subbie, posted 06-19-2009 8:17 PM subbie has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3267 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 62 of 67 (512946)
06-22-2009 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Hyroglyphx
06-19-2009 8:31 PM


Re: All hail the prophet!
Well, to get this back on topic. Are there fear-mongers out there who are using the potential crisis to benefit themselves? Obviously. There always are. Should we disregard that entire side of the debate because a very vocal minority is behaving poorly? No. Attack the argument, not the argumenter.
As for carbon credits. I'm not sure which type you mean. If you mean, someone paying a company to plant X number of trees to offset their car driving, or whatever. I think it's more for their peace of mind rather than any actual benefit, but the benefit still exists. Even if nothing else, we get more trees, which are good.
If you mean the polluting companies buying credits from companies that pollute less. I think this is a good idea. The cap and trade system will benefit the companies that pollute less, force major offenders to reduce their pollution, and generally reduce pollution as the number of credits gets reduced.
Recycling is BIG business started off of a bald faced lie.
I don't know how you mean this. Recycling programs in my area are being reduced or eliminated all otgether because they LOSE money in the endeavor. The only thing that makes money for recyclers is aluminum. It's slowly trending towards the other end, where recycling can bring in a profit, but it's a slow march, and frankly, I will applaud the moment it becomes not only environmental but also economical to recycle. I fully admit that the hysteria of the 80s and 90s was perpetrated by a lie, but again, does that make the logic behind it now any less valid?
I agree that emissions should be controlled and monitored. I agree that it is good practice to conserve energy. I agree that it could be possible that global warming is directly attributed to mankind's lax attitude. What I don't agree with is the hysteria-induced mania, the fear mongering, the exaggerations, the guilt trips, and the outright lies.
Very true. Guilt-trips and lies are counterproductive and serve only to discredit a person's argument. The hysteria problem is one of a lack of evidence, as you suggest, but I think I know where it's coming from. If you had evidence that some time in the next 100 years, your body would be ripped apart via some new force. (Let's forget, for the sake of the story that you probably wouldn't believe any such prediction.) Would you just sit there and assume the time wouldn't happen until you're dead, or would you seek to find some way of stopping it, perhaps even hysterically, in case it comes to pass next Thursday?
People are getting hysterical because we think there could be a point at which it becomes impossible for us to do anything about the warming, but we're not exactly sure when that point is. We think we have a chance at reversing, or at least mitigating the damage until that point is reached, and some evidence, however scant, seems to indicate that tipping point is near. Should we wait until we have more evidence, possibly waiting until it's too late, or should we push ahead and try to do something that is good even outside the GW debate? If some get freaked out and hysterical, it's not that hard to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2009 8:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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