An unforgivable crime?

cavediver writes

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Can you begin to imagine the punishment they received by simply being their parents?

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There are two possible punishments I can think of: social and psychological. The social part could easily go away by simply moving away to somewhere else where you are not so readily recognized. The psychological part could also easily go away as the Nazis had shown us.People are assuming that these boys' parents have a conscience. What if they don't? In this particular case I cannot say either way, but I have known some crappy parents who have no sympathy for anyone but their child. Some of these crappy parents have no conscience.Added by edit.I cannot back any of the following with any real data.There was a time in my life where I thought about a lot why or how people with no conscience the way they are. I spent hours and hours in the library each day reading as much as I could on subjects relating horrendous acts and crimes.What many authors seemed to agree on regarding early behaviors that are tell tale signs, and probably are the causes themselves, for hidden desires to commit hateful, hurtful, or even murderous acts are finding amusement in torturing little animals. First, you start out with insects, then reptiles, then rodents, then your family dog, then other people's pets, etc. For certain people, it is suppose to give you some kind of orgasm-like kick out of hurting other things or people.Some past defendents have tried the not guilty by reason of genetics defense... Sorry, I've been thinking out loud. I'll stop now.Edited by rgb, : No reason given.

CS writes

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But, from a legal point of view, we don't try minors as adults so we should let them out.

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Some would argue that sociopathic children can never be cured. Perhaps our current legal system is ill equipped to deal with such an issue?

Modulous writes

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I think, given the complexities of these situations, this is a pretty good solution. If they remained evidently sociopathic in the 8 years they were in custody, they wouldn't be released.

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Yet, I was able to go through middle school and high school without anyone knowing I was racist.It is called adaptation to whatever social role you are expected to take. For some people, hiding their hidden desires or real personality is not only possible but essential (guess where I got this phrase from). I can only tell you that I realized very early on that most people would have treated me differently if they found out I hated and looked down upon people of other races. Even though I was still racist inside, I was able to change my outward appearance. I even began to hang out with black students.Racism is a relatively mild sociopathic behavior, and yet it was that hard for me to change. Imagine a worse form of such a personality disorder.I can't say if these boys have been "cured" or not. What I can say is if it was up to me I wouldn't have risked more innocent lives just so a couple of "ex"-sociopathic individuals could have a chance at.. what, stuff more battery acid down other people's throats?But say that it was right for the legal system to let these two out. I want to see them do something amazing with their lives, like become the next saints.

schrafinator writes

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George W. Bush used to blow up frogs by sticking firecrackers in them.

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Really? Is there a link where I can read this?

Legend writes

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you seem to have far more confidence in the British penitentiary system that the evidence suggests.

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While I cannot say anything about the British legal system, I can tell you that sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism, especially when their crimes involve children. And yet, we continue to release them into the world to rape/molest more innocents.Our legal system was established based on the concept that we would rather release 100 guilty convicts rather than imprison 1 innocent individual. I can't say I've made up my mind on this yet. Does anyone here agree or disagree with this? If so, why or why not?

MangyTiger writes

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Either of you got any figures?

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I was thinking that Crashfrog was being sarcastic. But if you must, the following is taken from the federal bureau of justice statistics.http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htmUnder "Recidivism", it says:

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Recidivism

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Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.

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The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 accounted for nearly 4,877,000 arrest charges over their recorded careers.

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Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for a new homicide.

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Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense -- 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders.

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Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison -- 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.

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Right after, it deals with sex offenders only.

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Sex offenders

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On a given day in 1994 there were approximately 234,000 offenders convicted of rape or sexual assault under the care, custody, or control of corrections agencies; nearly 60% of these sex offenders are under conditional supervision in the community.

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The median age of the victims of imprisoned sexual assaulters was less than 13 years old; the median age of rape victims was about 22 years.

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An estimated 24% of those serving time for rape and 19% of those serving time for sexual assault had been on probation or parole at the time of the offense for which they were in State prison in 1991.
Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3% were rearrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release.

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Of released sex offenders who allegedly committed another sex crime, 40% perpetrated the new offense within a year or less from their prison discharge.

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I have underlined what I think are important statements regarding our question.While sex offenders are less likely to commit ANY crime after release, they are 4 times more likely than other offenders to recommit their sex crimes. Crashfrog was right that murder (homicide) related crimes seems to indicate less rate of recidivism than sex crimes.

Again, I really feel that we have gotten off the wrong foot somewhere, crashfrog. You are an experienced debater, and I am not. I'm probably digging a bigger hole for myself, but here goes.crashfrog writes

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I think you've made an enormous error in suggesting that the data you've underlined (or any of the rest of it) supports your contention that "sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism". Unless you mean to suggest, in an unclear way, that sex offenders in the United States system have a higher recidivism rate than sex offenders in other countries. It's certainly the case that such rates are higher for such persons in the US compared to the UK or Canada, but I'm not aware that the numbers indicate that the US is the highest worldwide.

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In no way have I suggested that I was speaking about the entire world. I believe I said

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While I cannot say anything about the British legal system, I can tell you that sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism, especially when their crimes involve children.

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Taking this sentence apart, I'd intepret that "while I cannot say anything about the British legal system" to mean that I do not know enough about the British legal system or what the statistics are for Britain for me to comment. The next part of the sentence "I can tell you that sex offenders in the States have the highest rate of criminal recidivism" I'd interpret as me speaking as an American who knows at least a detail or two about the legal system in the United States can say that the recidivism rate in sex offenders tend to be higher than all other crimes.Nowhere in that sentence have I intentionally indicated that I was talking about the world. If my sentence indeed gave you that impression, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.crashfrog writes

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Certainly the contention that, within the US, sex offenders have even a high recidivisim rate is not supported by the Bureau of Justice or any other source.

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You question the Bureau's claim of the high rate of recidivism in sex offenders in this country, and that is your right.For now, I can neither deny your sources nor confirm them. At a later time, I will look more into it!Edited by rgb, : fixed quote box

Modulous writes

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I'd imagine it would be much harder for some young adults to fool a panel of experts over a period of years than it is for a school kid to fool a bunch of other school kids and some teachers that you think a certain way.

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Modulous, as a matter of fact the opposite is more likely to be true. Pretending to be something you are not can be very draining and tiring, especially if you have to do it for an extended amount of time. With a student-student relationship, the interactions last for half a day everyday for years, not to mention all the extracurricular activities that the students might be together with. On the other hand, these panels of experts aren't there to watch the individuals in question anywhere near as long as what you would see in a student-student interaction time. They mostly get their impressions from reports by evaluators, who only show up every once in a while to watch a good show, grades of the individuals in question (which tells you nothing about their sociopathic tendencies), and face to face impression of the individuals every once in a while (again, they showed up to give a good show).I'm not saying that I know for sure of what the boys in question have become. What I'm trying to say is that to have done what they have at the age of 10 requires a very warped sense of what is right and wrong or, worse, knowing what is right and wrong but does not care.

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So, in your opinion, we should keep children that commit serious crimes, in prison for their entire adult lives? I don't, and the relevant professionals agree.

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It really depends. I am not a legal expert so I cannot say I can speak authoritively on the matter. I am only expressing my uncomfortness with the case we are discussing.

Modulous writes

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What would be just? Should we torture them to death over the course of several hours? Would that be justice?

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Funny how you should mention this. For many years now, a part of me tells me that that is indeed justice while another part says no. The debate within me continues.