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Author | Topic: An unforgivable crime? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: oh, that's allright then! I'm actually in a dispute with one of my neighbours but, you know, after I beat him to a bloody pulp chances are I won't do it again. A smack on the wrist then and I'll be on my way. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: hell, why not? all they did was repeatedly, intently and unprovokedly tortured a 3-yr old boy until he was dead. I mean how would they know -at the tender age of 10- that throwing paint over one's face actually hurts? how could they know that kicking a toddler, hitting him with bricks, stones and a 22 lb (10 kg) iron bar would actually cause him damage ? I mean we didn't know that when we were 10, did we ? Let'em all out I say! "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: you seem to have far more confidence in the British penitentiary system than the evidence suggests. Edited by Legend, : spelling "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Modulous writes: If the people that committed this crime were 18 when they did it, I'd agree that 8 years was not enough. Since that is very much not the case, I don't. are you suggesting that a 10 year old's ability to understand the consequences of abducting a toddler, kicking him, hitting him with bricks, stones and a 22 lb (10 kg) iron bar is somehow less developed than a 18 year old's ?? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Crashfrog writes: Yes, a 10-year-old's ability to understand the consequences of those actions is significantly less developed than an 18-year-old's. I don't know how you reach that conclusion but based on personal experience, both my own and every other 10 year old's I've ever known the consequences of such actions are pretty well understood well before that age. Do you know many 10-year olds who will willingly hit themselves with a 10kg iron bar ? I don't think so, as they are fully aware of the consequences of this action. I bet good money that these two wouldn't hit themselves with a 10kg iron bar but they didn't hesitate to do the same to a 3-yr old toddler they abducted. remember, we're not talking fraud or insider trading here, we're talking about rudimentary and sustained physical violence.
Crashfrog writes: And even if it weren't, a 10-year-old's ability to control his impulses and make decisions definately is "somehow" less developed than an 18-year-old's. There wasn't a momentary impulse or single decision involved in this case. It was a series of planned, repeated and sustained actions. They even tried to destroy the evidence afterwards, which shows they were fully aware of what they've done.
Crashfrog writes:
This is the definition of being a child ??
I mean, that's the definition of "being a child." Crashfrog writes:
yes, but never this!
What, you're telling me you never did anything boneheadedly stupid as a child? Crashfrog writes: How do you think people learn to consider the consequences of their actions in the first place? so...the only way to learn the consequences of hitting and kicking and striking someone with an iron bar is to go out and do it ? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
please see my reply to Crashfrog below as he raised the same points as you did.
quote:I agree with that but I don't think it should be a mitigating factor in any case. quote: I'm not making a case for trying and punishing preteens as adults, I'm making a case for moving away from self-righteous moral absolutes and the culture of absolving responsibility that permeates our justice system. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: IMO, the only difference netween the 10 yr old doing what they did and an adult doing the same thing is that the adult would possibly think ahead in terms of the police investigation, trial and legal aspects, possibly try to make up an allibi, etc. As far as the immediate consequences of repeatedly hitting and kicking someone until they were dead I think that these kids knew exactly what they were doing in a way that any adult would. They showed pre-meditation, callousness and a sadistic streak. The rest is just refusal to get off our self-righteous high-horse and see things for what they are: there are 10-yr olds out there who consciously enjoy inflicting pain and suffering to others. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: compared to what they did damn right it is! At least they have a chance to live and enjoy the best part of their lives. It's the same chance they've consciously and intentionally taken away from James and his family. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote:how is the lack of understanding of any of the above a mitigating factor for what they did ? quote:so, there was pre-meditation to cause harm and distress even if it initially was just to get him lost. quote:Which shows intent. That was no accident, no 'I pushed him for a prank, he fell, hit his head and died' kind of thing. They came back to finish him off. quote:Yes, but some posters argue that they should be let out early because when they committed the crime 'they were only 10'. I say that, in this particular case, their age shouldn't be a mitigating factor for their actions and therefore they should serve a much longer term than they did. The fact that they didn't is a mockery of the term 'justice' and an insult to the victim's family. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: this isn't about their decisions, this is about our decisions as a society to allow kids to get away with murder (literally) because punishing children is not "the right thing to do".
quote: that's just another way of saying 'come on...they were only 10' "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: It's the old 'crime should fit the punishment' adage. The fact that, IMO, there were no mitigating circumstances, i.e. no provocation, no momentary 'red mist' or lapse of reason, makes this old saying even more hard-hitting.
quote: that's fine and that's what happened. I just don't think it was just. As per the re-offending factor, I can't see how it can even be taken into consideration in a crime of this nature. This was cold, calculated torture not a heat-of-the moment manslaughter.
quote:No, I still wouldn't fell that justice had been served. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: Legend writes: how is the lack of understanding of any of the above a mitigating factor for what they did ? Modulous writes: Because these are the things that shape morality and deterrent. If you are unable to grasp the full ramifications of your actions, should you be punished as if you are? Still don't understand. Lack of understanding of the pain it would cause others, mitigates their actions, how exactly ?Same goes for all the others. Modulous writes:
No, it just shows that they intended to cause distress, at a minimum. It shows that they planned to cause emotional damage, at least
Does the fact that they wanted to get him lost mean they should serve more prison time? Legend writes: I say that, in this particular case, their age shouldn't be a mitigating factor for their actions and therefore they should serve a much longer term than they did. Modulous writes:
I thought I'd already explained that: Because they were fully aware of the immediate consequences of their actions and their effect on their victim. The same way an adult would be.
And what we need to know - is why? Why shouldn't their age be a mitigating factor? Modulous writes: All that has happened is that they have been taken out of custody, and they can be put back in again at any time. so they are free to live on their own, make friends, watch telly, go out, have an income, etc.Where does the punishment or deterrent come into that ? Modulous writes:
I don't know if it's enough but it's definitely 'more just'.
Do you think that justice can ever be served by humans in this case? What would be just? Should we torture them to death over the course of several hours? Would that be justice? Do you think that putting them in prison for fifteen years (what the Bulger's thought was reasonable), is more just? Is it just enough? Modulous writes: It all boils down to whether or not we should treat preteens as adults. No it doesn't. It boils down to treating each case on its merits instead of hiding behind the absolute morality of '10 yr olds can't consciously do evil things'
Modulous writes: So far I've just seen emotive pleading to the horrors of their crime (which I have agreed would warrant a greater sentence had they been adults). The only case I have seen with any merit is for fifteen years rather than eight. you're the one who keeps asserting that pre-teens shouldn't be tried as adults. Maybe you could tell me why that should apply, in this particular case. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Modulous writes: If you don't fully understand the ramifications of your actions, it is unfair to treat somebody as if they did. I think we both agree that they understood perfectly the direct ramifications of their actions, i.e. inflicting of pain and death. Your argument seems to be that they didn't understand the indirect ramifications of their actions, i.e. suffering to families, prison sentence, etc. My response is: what does it matter ? They had no problem torturing a 3-yr old, do you honestly think they'd give a toss about the suffering of his family even if they did understand it (which I think they did) ? Conversely, how can lack of fear of punishment mitigate any crime ? Since when does the line "I'm sorry officer I wasn't aware that I could get 20 yrs for armed robbery, wouldn't have done it if I'd known" is heard in defense of a crime ? In this particular case, there can be little doubt that the kids knew that what they were doing was illegal as well as morally wrong; they led James through back streets and tried to make it look like an accident when they finished with him.
Modulous writes: That is why we don't imprison crazy people and why we have leniency for juveniles. Why else do we not try juveniles as adults? because there are many cases where juveniles do not appreciate or misunderstand the direct ramifications of their actions, e.g. car crime, vandalism, certain types of burglary. The James Bulger case was not one of those cases. It was intentful, unprovoked and sustained violence. There is no question, IMO, that they didn't know exactly what they were doing and its consequences but they went ahead and did it anyway. There are no mitigating circumstances here other than the artificial 'they were only 10!'. Spending 8 years in what is effectively a two-star hotel and then be let out at the prime of their life so they can start again is not just and also serves as no deterrent to any other juveniles who might be tempted to do similar acts. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote: If they were fully aware that hitting someone with an iron bar causes pain and death and they still did it unprovoked and repeatedly, then yes I'd have a big problem with them being let out. It's always someone else's fault isn't it ? "Yes M'Lud he was drunk/stressed/uneducated/10/divorced/from a broken home/ etc. It wasn't his fault" the Teflon shoulder syndrome : nothing sticks! "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Legend Member (Idle past 5036 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
crashfrog writes:
"fully" means exactly what it says on the tin :
So now it's "fully aware", is it? "Fully" meaning what? Legend writes: If they were fully aware that hitting someone with an iron bar causes pain and death and they still did it unprovoked and repeatedly, then yes I'd have a big problem with them being let out. I am fully aware of the consequences of hitting someone with an iron bar. I was fully aware of them when I was 10. There is absolutely no reason to believe these kids weren't fully aware too. if you know of any evidence that suggests these kids had mental retardation problems please feel free to present it. Otherwise, take your politically correct sensitivities to the council estates of Liverpool and see how they fare there.
crashfrog writes: I don't see that a 10-year-old, being, as they are, ten, can be fully aware of anything. smashing! let's stop sending them to school then, expect them to know math and grammar, respect others and refrain from stealing and murdering. Come on, they're only 10!
crashfrog writes: But, you know, whatever. If you have no problem with the idea that a ten year old can commit murder just like an adult, I trust you'll have no trouble assuming that your average given 10 year old can fuck like an adult, too. ?? err... apples and oranges come to mind.
crashfrog writes: It would be nice if you could address the issues at hand, instead of hand-waving away arguments with ridiculous "tough on crime" aphorisms. what arguments?? your only argument so far has been "COme on they're only 10!". If you can explain how being 10 somehow makes you less culpable of abducting, torturing and eventually killing a 3-yr old boy then go ahead. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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