Randman's call for nonSecular education...

Wrong. They were atheists. Atheism was a specific and much touted tenet of Soviet communism.

"God is the state; the state is God."What did you think they meant by that? Icons of the state leader were regularly worshipped and presented and spoken to as though they were the leader itself, or the leader could observe through them; the state was held to have supernatural powers of observation, control, and survellience.Do these things sound like atheism to you? The denial of the supernatural? No, they're not. In communist Russia, the state was defied. "The state is God."What did you think they meant by that?

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Randman's confusion stems from a few different sources - US propaganda against communism, for one thing, and a historical trend of misapplication of the term "atheist".For example, Elizibethan playwright Christopher Marlowe was convicted by the Star Chamber of "atheism", though from his writings he certainly believed in God. The most accurate way to describe him would be as a unitarian."Atheist" has traditionally been misapplied, and generally, has historically referred to anyone indiginously of a Christian society who rejects that faith, regardless of their position on the existence of God.In other words, the communism of Russia was decried as "atheist" because they rejected the Orthodox Church. But the modern, correct usage of "atheist" would not apply to a society that elevated the state and the state leader to the position of godhood."God is the state; the state is God." To believe that the state is God is to believe in God, and thus, to not be an atheist.

No, Randman. Catholicism, christianity and all the others are subsets of religion. Atheism is not a subset of communism. Atheism is the idea that there are no deities. Communism is a form of government.There has never been, to my knowledge and I defy you to actually present one, a time when mirders have been commited in the name of atheism. Your simplistic idea that communism and atheism somehow equate aside, of course.You really must get your mind around this very simple fact before we can continue. I will even restate it. Communism and atheism are not the same thing.

No, my sources include reading Russian propaganda directly from them, as I used to speak Russian a long time ago, studying it 4 years in high school and some at the college level. I also went to Russia during the Soviet era, and my first Russian teacher was a high level CIA covert agent (although we did not know it at the time) who was the assistant naval attache when Stalin died. He retired from the CIA and was outed and subsequently blackballed by the KGB from entering the Soviet Union ever again while he was teaching my class.I have also read communist statements of what they believe and Russian dissidents' view on things.So crash, perhaps you are the one that doesn't really know how the Soviets felt about atheism. It is true in a loose term that they at times deified the state, but they would never claim that. They claimed atheism was their official belief, and it is what they beleived, and that religious belief was a psychological aberration, unscientific, and something the new generation of Soviets should be strongly encouraged to abandon.For them, atheism was a central tenet of their belief system. They considered themselves rational, scientific secularists.One thing you need to realize about the Soviets is that for them, it was not just about what they thought was a better economic system. They thought they could and would produce a better person, a better version of humanity, and atheism was central to their whole program as they believed by eliminating religious belief that people would be freed to be better people and would become better people. Communism for them was a moral effort to remake mankind.I guess you could call it religious and it was, as secularism generally is, but it was still atheism.

Mike, the Soviets killed people in the name of atheism, and they tortured religious people and would stop if the religious people would accept atheism. They believed religious belief was a cancer on humanity and sought to create an atheist state, and explicitly stated this repeatedly ad nauseum in fact.This message has been edited by randman, 11-15-2005 06:17 PM

"God is the state; the state is God."What do you think that means, Rand? Or do you deny that that was the position of the communist government?

Here is more info for you, which you could get yourself by googling. http://www.findarticles.com/.../mi_m0SOR/is_1_65/ai_n6141811 Soviet Union - Wikipedia Bartleby.com: The Soviet Union was an official atheist state, and atheism was central to the belief system of Soviet communists, just as abolishing private ownership of business was. They were not more dedicated to the one or the other.

What they meant is that there is no God. They considered the concept of a Creator or Divine being to be an unhealthy psycholigical aberration that needed to be stamped out, by force if necessary.Their position was that God does not exist. They were officially atheist.Do you deny this?This message has been edited by randman, 11-15-2005 06:27 PM

I've already proven how "atheist" is very often misapplied as a term; your references are meaningless in that light.

So the fact they called themselves atheists, and said all religion was unscientific and unhealthy means nothing, eh crash?What a joke!Tell me something. How many Soviet communists employed by the government there have you ever talked with about this subject?This message has been edited by randman, 11-15-2005 06:33 PM

Right. And replaced with the supernatural worship of the state. Atheism isn't simply the position that God does not exist; it's the position that no gods exist. Yes, I do. While the official Soviet position denied the gods of all other religions, they replaced those gods with the godhood of the state. Denying all other gods isn't atheism; it's a common feature of religions, in fact.It's certainly a common, widespread error to refer to the Soviet state as "atheist", as your resources prove, but commonality doesn't make an error into a truth. The Soviet state was not atheist, because they deified the state, and thus promoted a belief in a god.

Three or four, read a few books on life in Societ Russia, talked to a guy that used to help smuggle secret agents in via the Orthodox church. That sort of thing, mostly. I don't speak Russian but my wife is fluent.You?

Also, you proved nothing and showed no evidence that the Soviets were not atheist as they claimed to be.Do you think the Soviets believed the Soviet state created the world or was God in the sense of being the Creator?