Randman's call for nonSecular education...

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. The communists of Russia and other nations were not atheists, they were statists. They had a state religion that was the deification of the state and the state leader.You've heard the phrase "God is the state; the state is God"? What did you think they meant by that?Just because they persecuted the Orthodox church doesn't mean that they were atheists or opposed to all religions. Like most religions, they were simply violently opposed to all other religions.

"God is the state; the state is God."What did you think they meant by that? Icons of the state leader were regularly worshipped and presented and spoken to as though they were the leader itself, or the leader could observe through them; the state was held to have supernatural powers of observation, control, and survellience.Do these things sound like atheism to you? The denial of the supernatural? No, they're not. In communist Russia, the state was defied. "The state is God."What did you think they meant by that?

Randman's confusion stems from a few different sources - US propaganda against communism, for one thing, and a historical trend of misapplication of the term "atheist".For example, Elizibethan playwright Christopher Marlowe was convicted by the Star Chamber of "atheism", though from his writings he certainly believed in God. The most accurate way to describe him would be as a unitarian."Atheist" has traditionally been misapplied, and generally, has historically referred to anyone indiginously of a Christian society who rejects that faith, regardless of their position on the existence of God.In other words, the communism of Russia was decried as "atheist" because they rejected the Orthodox Church. But the modern, correct usage of "atheist" would not apply to a society that elevated the state and the state leader to the position of godhood."God is the state; the state is God." To believe that the state is God is to believe in God, and thus, to not be an atheist.

"God is the state; the state is God."What do you think that means, Rand? Or do you deny that that was the position of the communist government?

I've already proven how "atheist" is very often misapplied as a term; your references are meaningless in that light.

Right. And replaced with the supernatural worship of the state. Atheism isn't simply the position that God does not exist; it's the position that no gods exist. Yes, I do. While the official Soviet position denied the gods of all other religions, they replaced those gods with the godhood of the state. Denying all other gods isn't atheism; it's a common feature of religions, in fact.It's certainly a common, widespread error to refer to the Soviet state as "atheist", as your resources prove, but commonality doesn't make an error into a truth. The Soviet state was not atheist, because they deified the state, and thus promoted a belief in a god.

Three or four, read a few books on life in Societ Russia, talked to a guy that used to help smuggle secret agents in via the Orthodox church. That sort of thing, mostly. I don't speak Russian but my wife is fluent.You?

I'm pretty sure theirs was the belief that the world itself was eternal, but I could be wrong.Nonetheless, the specifics of their state theology are not relevant. Different religions ascribe different properties to their deities. What does that prove?

Granted, but disdain for other religions is a common feature of religious belief, so what's your point? The deification of the state. Do you deny that took place? That people saluted images of the leader as though they were the leader himself? I seem to recall things like parades and demonstrations taking place in front of icons of the leader, as though he could observe them through the painting.I mean, does it make sense to you that atheism would be responsible for all those murders? When all of the countries of northern Europe are secular, atheist states and they haven't killed anyone? If state atheism meant mass murder, the Scandinavian states would be bloodbaths, not the states with the greatest standard of living in the world.Religions have always been a force for mass murder. Atheism never has. The mass murders of the Soviet empire were due to their religious conviction to their state, their state's leaders, and their total devotion to ideology; none of these things are features associated with secularism and atheism.

"God is the state; the state is God."Do you just have a problem reading plain English, or what? I mean, if Trotsky, one of the architects of the Soviet state, isn't an authority on the subject, then who is? Wikipedia? The website where anybody can write any wrong article?Please. I've proven that the Soviet state is not atheist. The best you can seem to do is prove that they oppressed other religions; an almost universal feature of a religious state.

If you're referring to positivist atheism, I'd say that you're right. Agnostic atheism is not a religion, however; it's the absence of any religious belief. You're right; I shouldn't have implied that they were. They are, however, highly secular states, and about the closest there has ever been to an atheist state. But there has never been a true atheist state; probably because religion is such a potent tool for control.

Yes. Just as a government with specific prohibitions against state churches can be highly religious, like ours is.Regardless, the Scandanavian states are almost universally considered to be secular states, such as in a recent study peer-reviewed in the Journal of Religion and Society:

quote:

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RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

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According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

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He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

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The Times & The Sunday TimesSadly, it's probably the case that no nation can successfully eliminate religion, and honestly the attempt usually causes more problems than religion itself. Nonetheless, in regards to secular states, the Scandanavian nations and other areas of Europe represent the best practical examples. "Secular" does not mean "atheist."

I never have maintained that stance. As I've said, different religions ascribe different properties to their gods. The fact that the god of the Soviets was not held to be the creator of the world is no more an indicator of atheism then the fact that the god that you believe in doesn't have the eight arms of Hindu deities.But what's very telling is the fact that you can do nothing but attack positions I've already told you I don't hold. Your inability to address my points is obvious.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 11-15-2005 09:46 PM

What really blew my mind was when I learned that the UK is a constitutional monarchy without an actual formal constitution.How do you guys get along without one? How does anybody even attempt to understand your own government without something to sum up 2000 years of English legal history?

No, it's not.I'm calling you out on this one, because I know you're making these things up.