My Christian Theism gets Personal!

Hi Phat,I am not a great believer in the free will defence, there are too many problems with it. Because you are exploiting the situation, you have the ideal ‘captive audience’, why don’t you just befriend the kid without bringing your mythology into it?Look at it this way, the kid obviously needs a friend, you arrive and he begins to trust you because you are a decent enough guy, you earn his trust then you mention Jesus and how wonderful he is, the kid, believing that you are a good guy swallows your propaganda hook line and sinker, you have exploited that child, you have taken advantage of the situation, I personally think it is criminal, but that is just my opinion.Whenever I do anything for someone else, and there are a great deal many people I have helped, I do it because I want to, they are a fellow human and I want the best for them. But I do not exploit the situation to promulgate my faith, I don’t say to kids that I help (and adults too) that they should embrace atheism and that Christianity is a joke, to me that would be abusing my position and exploiting a vulnerable person, it is disgraceful. Why not? A short sharp metaphorical kick up the backside often works. They can be shown examples where real people have turned their lives around through hard work and counselling. Oh great, so you acknowledge that they are desperate fro a friend, they have no one to turn to so in step good old phatboy, earns their trust, I am you friend you know, by the way, have you heard about Jesus, you should be ashamed of yourself. This is pure and simple exploitation of a vulnerable person. Why? Why do you feel this urge to keep this pathetic self-deluding myth going? By all means give the kids a helping hand, I admire anyone that does that, but once you gain their trust you have a moral obligation not to exploit them. Not at all, you have a faith, it is a personal faith, but you exploit others and that sickens me, there should be a law against that. Of cours ehe hasn’t let you down, you make excuses for him all the time so it isn’t possible for him to let you down. Love an hope from a 3000 year old Hebrew myth? Love and hope from a guy born 2000 years ago who was a liar and a cheat? Yeah, Jesus was some role model. I have, and continue to, help people, but I don’t bring my personal beliefs into it, I do not bring down theism when I help others, I talk to them as equals and I do not help them for the reward at the end of it. I help people because they are people, not because a self contradicting collection of ancient texts tells me to. Oh I bet they are since Christianity and exploitation goes hand in hand, the more innocent minds that Christianity corrupts the better.Why not be a decent human being and help others because they need help, leave the fairytales at home.Brian

Stephen,My post was trying to point out that a mature perspective on the trials of existence is basically indistinguishable from belief that "it's all part of the Plan." Whether we attribute events to the indifference of the universe or the intention of the Creator, we accept the things we can't control and hope for better things.However, you've made a name (or two) for yourself on this board by asserting that faith and prayer have demonstrable, quantifiable effects. Many believers use miracles or answered prayers as support for the validity of their faith. And ultimately, the promised afterlife constitutes a compelling reason to keep faith when things seem bleak. I submit that the believer is motivated by material gain just as strongly as the non-believer.The story of Job (to which you alluded in your first reply to DC85) is a case in point. Job is a righteous man who suffers his calamities nobly at first. When he finally succumbs to doubt, God reminds him that he doesn't have the proper understanding to make sense of life's traumas. Job accepts this, and then believers can breathe a sigh of relief when Job is restored to health and prosperity. The message that faith must be its own reward is thus contradicted: we're reassured that there'll be a payoff eventually. Yeshua himself (the real one, not you) was no stranger to the I'll-pay-you-back-after-you-die tactic: he said his father's house has many mansions, and he was going to prepare one for each of his followers.So one can have a realistic perspective on suffering based on mature acceptance of the often unfortunate truths of our existence. However, I don't accept that faith in a sweet afterlife deal is mature or realistic. If there weren't a tangible benefit involved in 'praising the Lord anyway,' you wouldn't be doing it.regards,
Esteban "Plague of Boils" Hambre

Chris,Being religious is not highly recommended in scripture, so it is difficult to confirm when God tells someone to join one. On this issue, I tend to side with those who say that one ought to be very careful that what we hear from God be confirmed in scripture. What is written there is this, in James:"If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridel his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless. Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world."And, from Paul (1 Corinth 4:16), (in a discussion of division in the church)"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written...."So, what can one hear from God about joining a religion? Just, don't. Take the energy, visit widows and orphans in their trouble, learn to shed worldly ways. (Good examples of worldly ways? Church buildings, Sunday Schools, Church bulletins, Committees, Budgets, Pledges,...none of these written.)I count myself as a disciple of Yeshua, often called Jesus. I refuse the label Christian ("of Christ") because it is specifically forbidden in scripture (1 Corinth 1:12). Actually, in one conversation with God, He told me not to even pray for Christians, because going to a Christian church was a "sin unto death." (1 John 5:16). The tares, that Yeshua said are seeds of the evil one, are bundled up together in Churches.Stephen

MrHambre,Good post. I agree with all your points. Yeshua, whose name I am attempting to honor here, also agreed. "Everyone who leaves (long list follows) for My sake will receiveIN THIS LIFE100 times whatever was given up." And then and only then the promise of even more in the life to come.But don't miss the point of Job, as most Christians do. Job confessed at the end that he had been satisfied to "to hear about" God, and didn't fervently seek His face. His righteousness was of the distant sort, trying to do what is right, etc. Not of the "walk humbly with your God" sort. If it was me, now, and it hit my fan the way it hit Job's, I'd be right up there in the midst of whatever discussion God was having with Satan, making a case for myself, face to face. To which I, the angels on God's side, and some others, say,Hallelujah! It's a lousy message, and anyone who believes it deserves what they get.Stephen "grateful for doing much better than I deserve, thank you very much" ben Yeshua.

I help people all the time. I don't do it Because God Told me to or Because it says it is the right thing to do in some book.. or Because I want to go too heaven and not hell. I do it Because I want to... I like helping people. If I have something better why not share?

Hi Phat,I would like to retract 'Love and hope from a guy born 2000 years ago who was a liar and a cheat? Yeah, Jesus was some role model.'from my earlier reply.This was a very childish thing to say and I am sorry for any offence caused.Brian

Brian,I'd like to apologize as well, for saying in Message #18, Actually, in one conversation with God, He told me not to even pray for Christians, because going to a Christian church was a "sin unto death." (1 John 5:16).I don't know what kind of crack I was smoking, that was really uncalled for. I don't really expect anyone to be so dumb they'd believe I have conversations with God, okay? And I don't blame anyone for being mortified that I would say going to a Christian church is a mortal sin. I'll try to be more responsible in the future.regards,
Este ban Hambre

I was gonna go off on a rant, but I saw the appologies and I am now gonna go take a nice long nap! [This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-16-2004]

MrHambre,Maybe you are right. Let the church-goers fall unwarned into the trap set for them by the tares! Let them learn of the error of their ways when they wake up in Hell, and it's too late! Let's keep telling them while we can that the perfect loving Father, able to do all things, doesn't have conversations with His children, believing that they'll be dumb enough to believe such a thing. Let's not say anything that they might not want to hear. That's not nice! We're much better off being hypocrites, sifting through the scriptures for the nice verses, taking these as the gospel truth, and pretending the others aren't in the same inspired book. Or, better yet, pretending that we are the best judge of the universe, and that the only things that could be true are the things that we agree with. Yeah, that's the ticket.Stephen

Stephen,Hey, now, enough with that sarcasm. I believe the Bible Codes prove that God exists, that we are at spiritual war with demons, that Darwinist evolution is a lie from the maw of the Evil One, and that churchgoers are committing mortal sin. And God told me so. If you don't believe it, that's your choice. But He tells me to despise you for it, and to inform you that you'll rot in the furnace of Hell for not believing. Don't blame me, blame the Big Guy.I've presented all my evidence in the form of anecdote. I formulate quasi-scientific tests that are strange parodies of valid scientific methodology. I've dodged all challenges to subject my claims to controlled testing. Anyone who accuses me of stacking the deck, to give myself the right to believe whatever I want to believe, is taking Satan's side in the war against God. Our loving Father says I should hate them deeply and accuse them of scientific ignorance. Don't blame me, blame the Big Guy.Sounds like you're the one with the problem. Maybe you should get some epistemology, or beg the loving Father for faith and wisdom like mine. Feel free to call me a hateful crank, if you like, but I know it's only a product of your blind allegiance to your master Satan. I have the evidence, and God tells me what I need to know. You'd better equip yourself for a long eternity on the lake of burning fire, because that's where God tells me you're going. Don't blame me, blame the Big Guy.regards,
Esteban "Not My Fault" Hambre

MrHambre,It feels good to be so well understood! However, there are a few matters....Darwinist evolution is a scientific theory that contributed greatly to our understanding of how Jehovah created biologic diversity, and to our understanding of His nature. This contribution, of course, was side-tracked by Satan. Duh. replace "all" with "much of," and add, after "anecdote" "with directions how anyone can replicate these experiences, to convince themeselves, if they want to know." Remove "quasi-" replace with "hypothetico-deductive," remove "parodies of" insert "to those poorly trained in." Insert "watched as these untrained individuals" after "I've"And, of course, we all have free will. God makes choices, true, but so do you. He accepts the consequences of His choice, in this case, missing the pleasure of your company for eternity, and trusts that you will accept the consequences of your choice, to learn too late that Satan has made a fool of you, because you decided to let him.Justice is good, don't you think?Stephen

Stephen,Two and two equal five. God believes this, and he wants you to believe it too. I've done experiments and have arrived at this result, and you can too. If you don't come up with the right answer, pray some more. Try again later. If you still come up with a non-God-sanctioned result, maybe you're not praying hard enough. Maybe you don't want to see. Maybe your allegiance to Satan has clouded your vision, and I hate you deeply for that.Well, it's your choice. God wants us to see that two and two equal five. It's your choice, are you going to listen to your Almighty Loving Father or some cheap calculator? The key to eternal life is yours, and God won't be held responsible for the consequences should you refuse Him.See how easy this is?regards,
Esteban Hambre{edited to correct spelling}[This message has been edited by MrHambre, 03-19-2004]

MrHambre,I asked Him, and He said, "It depends on definitions of the words." If you let "two" refer to a set with 2 objects, and "five" refer to a set with 4 objects, two plus two now equals five."So, what happened when you took out a bible, looked up a commandment, and said, out loud, "Jehovah, if you are out there, and truly want me saved, and to come to a knowledge of the truth, as is written here somewhere, speak to me now, telling me how to obey this commandment that I am now reading about. And, when you speak, give me some clue that it's you speaking. I want to know your voice. I promise I will do what you say."Stephen

Ya know, Mr. H, Stephen's absolutely right. 2+2 DOES equal 5, for sufficiently large values of 2. I had a mathematician prove it to me once, although I don't remember his name and can't remember where it was. I remember that the explanation was totally incomprehensible, and had things like tensor calculus and Fermat's theorem in the proof. Therefore demons exist as long as we define demons as equal to 5. QED.

quote:

---

My point is that without God, we would not be able to be as effective. Otherwise, many non spiritual counselors would have similar success rates.

---

Do you have some stats or data to show that non-spiritual counselors do not share similar or better success rates than spiritual counselors?You can't make claims like that out of thin air.