Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   My Christian Theism gets Personal!
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 33 (92330)
03-14-2004 1:19 AM


Hello, everyone! I now realize what a tame message board that this one is compared to some of the more militant atheist sites on the net. They told me that I would change my beliefs after a few days debating them. I have not. I will acknowledge that the atheists are some of the more learned and intelligent people in society, and I will also agree that many of the Christian theists are unable to provide any compelling reason why theism is preferable to atheism.
I want to try.....in this thread.
I am a volunteer with the denver area Youth For Christ. I and several of my ministry partners are personally involved with the lives of quite a few of the inner city youth of Denver. We see some shattered lives, and we actively seek to help these kids in the times of crises which they face. One kid, 11 years old, watched his Dad die from a drug overdose in the family bathroom one week ago. Several of the kids have seen a life end in front of them. Many of their parents are addicts or are in prison. we have seen how the government and the social services programs attempt to help these kids. The kids themselves will tell you that we are their best hope and their best way out of the hurting and pained lives that they live. We don't preach to them. Sometimes, we share some wisdom and tie in a biblical parable, but we believe strongly in relationship as the cure for these young people. This has been one of my strongest proofs yet for a personal God and an active Holy Spirit. God works through relationships. The facts show that spiritual mentors have a better success rate than secular ones. God can be challenged in an intellectual and a logical way, but when it comes to matters of the heart and of relationship, God and His people are leading society.
My point? My point is that without God, we would not be able to be as effective. Otherwise, many non spiritual counselors would have similar success rates. Anyway, it is all for the kids..not for our churches or our agendas. we do it for free, and we love what we are being used for!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 03-14-2004 1:31 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 3 by DBlevins, posted 03-14-2004 4:20 PM Phat has replied
 Message 4 by DC85, posted 03-14-2004 6:05 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 03-15-2004 6:10 PM Phat has replied
 Message 30 by nator, posted 03-19-2004 8:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 33 (92331)
03-14-2004 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-14-2004 1:19 AM


God works through relationships.
You don't think it's possible that positive relationships can work all by themselves?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-14-2004 1:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3775 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 3 of 33 (92444)
03-14-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-14-2004 1:19 AM


Curious
Phatboy,
I am personally curious, and I hope that you do not take offence at this, but I wonder what kind of "message" your picture brings across? Not only because of the apparent reference to prostitution in the word "Pimpette", but also to the objectification of females or males. It seems rather "personal" to me, especially in light of your "work" in the projects? Is this the image which you wish to give to those people you help?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-14-2004 1:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 03-15-2004 3:02 PM DBlevins has not replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 4 of 33 (92467)
03-14-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-14-2004 1:19 AM


For some weird reason it is comforting to believe a god of some kind is watching over them... However I don't know about you but I Want to know someone I can see, feel, touch, and smell cares about me... I mean God can't hug me and say everything is going to be ok... If it can It never did through my rough childhood..... I think its better for a child to know you care about them not just preach about how some magical being does.
As A child I Believed in God however over time after praying and receiving no help I started to think God hated me or something...
With God in the mix I felt like there something else now that didn't care about me...
[This message has been edited by DC85, 03-14-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-14-2004 1:19 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Chris, posted 03-15-2004 5:21 PM DC85 has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 33 (92603)
03-15-2004 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by DBlevins
03-14-2004 4:20 PM


Re: Curious about Pimpin Logo....
My Logo was given to me by one of the kids. We all get along great, and my Logo in no way detracts from the respect which the kids give me. As expected, the only people who have problems with the Logo have so far been adults who find it offensive. You have to understand the younger generation. When they wear a t-shirt that says "Im a Porn Star" it does not indicate that they have any inkling towards that lifestyle. Same with my "pimpin" logo. Its just a caracature or a bunch of homies chillin on the street. At 44 years old, I hardly qualify as a true Pimp!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by DBlevins, posted 03-14-2004 4:20 PM DBlevins has not replied

  
Chris
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 33 (92619)
03-15-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by DC85
03-14-2004 6:05 PM


quote:
As A child I Believed in God however over time after praying and receiving no help I started to think God hated me or something...
Hi DC,
Imagine you had a child, would you always give anything what your child wanted?
When I was a child, I also had a hard life and prayed for God to make it easier.. but it never got answered. Now I think to myself, if God answered that prayer, I would never be like what I am now.
Don't think God hate you just because your prayers don't get answered. He still gives you other things what you really needed and maybe with your prayers don't come true, it gives the best result for you.
The important thing is always praise the LORD for anything that happend to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by DC85, posted 03-14-2004 6:05 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 03-15-2004 5:57 PM Chris has replied
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 03-15-2004 10:21 PM Chris has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 7 of 33 (92629)
03-15-2004 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chris
03-15-2004 5:21 PM


The problem with this is that if I'm mature enough to accept that things aren't always going to work out the way I want, I don't need God. Why should I praise the Lord for everything that happens to me, if I can already see the good and bad things as two sides of the same coin?
This is where a certain God-concept is completely impervious to rational consideration. "Whether good things happen or not, I thank God. Whether I get the things I want or not, I assume God is answering my prayers. Whether things turn out for the best or not, I consider everything part of God's plan. When events seem cruel, pitiless, or unfortunate, I figure God wants them to be that way."
So what sort of empirical significance does this belief system have? It seems that there is no conceivable eventuality that cannot be said to emanate from divine will. By the same token, there's no difference between that sort of belief in 'God's plan' and the belief that things happen for no particular reason.
regards,
Esteban "Fatalist" Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Chris, posted 03-15-2004 5:21 PM Chris has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-16-2004 6:24 AM MrHambre has replied
 Message 13 by Chris, posted 03-16-2004 7:14 AM MrHambre has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 33 (92631)
03-15-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
03-14-2004 1:19 AM


Christians never miss a trick
Hi Phat
We don't preach to them. Sometimes, we share some wisdom and tie in a biblical parable
You can always trust a Christian to exploit a situation. Why do you insist in bringing the Bible into the conversation? Also, did you explain why God sits back and allows all this suffering, is there a nice little piece of Bible wisdom to explain that?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 03-14-2004 1:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 03-16-2004 1:21 AM Brian has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 379 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 9 of 33 (92641)
03-15-2004 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chris
03-15-2004 5:21 PM


I understand that I can't get everything I want I even understood that then... However as I said God never so much as seemed to even care about my existence.... He never gave me comfort...
I mean What would you say to a father that just Sat back and did noting for and never showed them that he cared at all? (like my father and mother) We called my father a dead beat Dad.... should we call your God a dead Beat God? After all He never at all showed me he cared for me at all....
He still gives you other things what you really needed and maybe with your prayers don't come true, it gives the best result for you.
So what your saying is it God that my life better? Last I checked it was hard work that did it.... I only Became a better person AFTER I stopped believing... was it Gods plan for me to become an Atheist/Agnostic?
Even as Christen I never understood why people thank God for the food they are about to eat.... I mean Last I checked I worked my BUTT off to put that food on the table... The only one I have to thank for that is myself as far as I can see...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Chris, posted 03-15-2004 5:21 PM Chris has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-16-2004 6:00 AM DC85 has not replied
 Message 14 by Chris, posted 03-16-2004 7:27 AM DC85 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 33 (92666)
03-16-2004 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
03-15-2004 6:10 PM


Re: Christians never miss a trick OR a treat!
Brian, I am sure that you have heard all of the arguments from a theists point of view. I know that I have heard plenty of the agnostic/skeptic/atheist arguments against God. Why does He allow suffering? He gave us free will, we have a choice to trust His Son and let Him make all things right, and yet people think that God is sadistic and plays with humanity like a kid plays with bugs. You have to know that I trust God. God has influenced my life. I may not be able to prove it just yet, but if I had a while to think, I could tie together some stories which I believe truly show His influence.
If I am talking to a kid in Juvie, why is it wrong to bring God up? You mean to suggest that we simply tell them to believe in themselves? They have a broken image. They have had hurt lives and are unable to trust their male and/or female role models...often their very parents! I am not gonna be their Daddy! I can only tell them how my "Daddy" has helped me. God is like my Daddy. You may scoff. I will tell you that God is not a sugar Daddy! God is not a Disneyland Dad! God is like a Father who has never let me down. I am sorry for people such as you, DC85. You say that God was never there for you? You say that you once were a Christian? well, did you ever have a good sense of having personally "met" God? Did you ever feel safe and secure just knowing that feeling? What convinced you that it was untrue? Why is it so realistic to trust in ourselves and the natural world around us? This planet is no more secure than a Belief in God! This planet will pass away. This life has no guarantees anyway. People experience pain in life. Divorce tears relationships apart, and the kids suffer. Cancer and disease. Accidents, casualities of life and of war. For inner city kids, the casualties have been high. It is not enough to give them social service programs. It is not enough to think that they can be taught personal empowerment. They need an infusion of love, and of hope. If they get it from me, they will get my spiritual views and beliefs. My personal faith in a living and loving God. Brian, you may think that it is un necessary to bring up Christianity. For you relating to them, that may be true. If you ever influence any hurt people in life, I hope that you are successful.
DC85, I am sorry that your life has forced you to become tough and cynical. Perhaps it is what is needed for now. God has not forgotten you, nor has He ignored you. The option is always there.
All that I know is that I and the other YFC volunteers have made a difference in the lives of more than a few kids, and we are honored to have done so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 03-15-2004 6:10 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 03-16-2004 8:16 AM Phat has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 33 (92695)
03-16-2004 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by DC85
03-15-2004 10:21 PM


DG85,
Thank you for a sincere report, of your dealings with God. Most thought-provoking. You note,
I mean What would you say to a father that just Sat back and did noting for and never showed them that he cared at all? (like my father and mother) We called my father a dead beat Dad.... should we call your God a dead Beat God? After all He never at all showed me he cared for me at all....
Your evident intelligence here sets a high standard, for your pursuit of God. God evidently doesn't require everyone coming to Him to be aware that they are coming not as a child to a parent, but as an enemy seeking to defect from one army to another. But, it looks like He wanted you to understand this. Perhaps you had a fairly extensive exposure to biblical teaching, to go along with your high IQ. Have you ever been taught the story of Jesus and the Canaanite woman, who wanted help for her daughter? (Matt 15:22-28) He says that He is very cold-hearted towards those who do not choose the fear of the Lord (see Prov 1:20-33) perhaps to protect those that already are His children indeed from the ravages of hypocrites and unbelievers.
The "gospel" you get from Christianity is not reliable good news, and I understand that it actually exists to break and harden hearts, to turn people away from God. That's what Jesus said, anyway, "You don't go in, and you prevent others from going in." I'm sure that God views many little children coming to Him for comfort as suicide bombers, trying to get into His kingdom, to blow themselves up and take others with them. They may be unaware of that, so He doesn't kill them on sight. But, coming from some Sunday School where they are taught lethal doctrines, they try to get reach God without becoming a part of His kingdom. To really get to Him and His, they have to take the bombs off.
I suspect that when you prayed as a child, God heard anything in your heart that really wanted a loving Father, and started the long process of getting you ready for His kingdom. Preparing the way of the Lord, as it is written. But, you are smart. You can read. You can and should by now know the conditions for becoming a child of God. Forgiveness, willingness to repent, admit you are wrong, change your mind, humility, looking for training in righteousness, love, a respect for justice.
So what your saying is it God that my life better? Last I checked it was hard work that did it.... I only Became a better person AFTER I stopped believing... was it Gods plan for me to become an Atheist/Agnostic?
Quite so. Rev 3:15-16. Christians are almost impossible to save. Hypocrisy has become so deeply ingrained, and spiritual arrogance. They actually use the word faith for their dogmatic opinionation!
The true gospel is a gospel about a kingdom, a government, a different citizenship. Anyone can immigrate into this kingdom, just learn the rules, leave the nation you are presently living in, and make the trip. If, in making plans for such a change, in "preparing the way of the Lord," you start asking for confirmation about the rewards, freedoms, opportunities, etc you will have in this new land, I suspect that you will find your prayers answered differently.
But, one of the rules is, never ever go to church, or call yourself a Christian. Just find someone to love, who will disciple you, from their home and life.
Stephen
PS. Try calling your natural dad, a "beaten dead" dad. Remember that if God is out there to answer prayers, so is the devil, to make people behave badly. Forgiveness means saying, "The devil made him do it." Remember that the devil even made God be so severe with Job.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 03-15-2004 10:21 PM DC85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Chris, posted 03-16-2004 7:33 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 33 (92696)
03-16-2004 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
03-15-2004 5:57 PM


Praising the Lord anyway
MrHambre,
Praising the Lord anyway, an old Charismatic idea, was supposed to, and by many anecdotal reports, actually did, increase considerably the rate and degree to which prayers were answered. I've never seen a prayer study that used this as a variable, but it would be interesting. The books on the subject, by Merlin Carothers, were very popular in their day.
The theology is interesting. God is in a battle with Satan, but Satan cannot hurt God, He's too big. So, Satan hurts God's image, some of whom are also His children. Then, he (Satan) taunts God, by pointing out that he has uglified His image, and made His children suffer. When those abused persons respond to the suffering by saying "Praise the Lord", as an act of love for their Creator/Father, this diminishes the pain of the taunt, and authorizes God to fulfil His promise to "make all things work to the good." Imagine a kidnapped child, talking to His daddy on the phone, telling him that he has already started celebrating the heroic rescue that he knows his daddy is preparing.
Remember, there are some of us who keep close track of increases in our health and welfare, as influenced by our praying and testimonies. But not, of course, decreases in our suffering, since "if we suffer with Him, we reign with Him." But, our ability to endure suffering cheerfully is a part of prosperity. Also, since suffering is a part of most aspects of life, that we have more than the normal amount of suffering is what we expect, if our life is richer in the positive dimensions (being in love, getting new ideas, children, adventures, etc.) We stay reassured that our prayer life is reasonable.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 03-15-2004 5:57 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by MrHambre, posted 03-16-2004 8:27 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Chris
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 33 (92704)
03-16-2004 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrHambre
03-15-2004 5:57 PM


quote:
The problem with this is that if I'm mature enough to accept that things aren't always going to work out the way I want, I don't need God.
So you need God only if He does your biddings?
quote:
Why should I praise the Lord for everything that happens to me, if I can already see the good and bad things as two sides of the same coin?
The thing is you already have "I don't need God" mind, while I have "I do need God" mind, we see things differently. I quess.. I praise the Lord for the "coin".
quote:
So what sort of empirical significance does this belief system have?
Maybe in this life, our System makes it more difficult for the people or believers.
(LUK 14:27) "And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."
Besides battling with the world also with sins, while non-believers only with the world. But our System, Christ helps our soul and also it will help for our next life.
You don't believe or don't care, right? Like what I said.. we see things differently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by MrHambre, posted 03-15-2004 5:57 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
Chris
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 33 (92705)
03-16-2004 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by DC85
03-15-2004 10:21 PM


quote:
After all He never at all showed me he cared for me at all....
Never? Maybe you just didn't realize it. What about your friends? Did you have good friends who gave you comfort when you needed it.. Sometimes God works through other people. Try to look on the past, I'm sure you missed something.
quote:
So what your saying is it God that my life better? Last I checked it was hard work that did it....
My friend you missed my point. I said, "other things what you really need".. God still gives you air that you breathe, sunshine, happiness, good friends, etc.
Work ..yes, everybody has to work, even Adam was told to work also (Oh..no, not him again) .
But.. you can choose, work for money or work for life.
I have seen people who only work for place to stay and food, not getting any money. Some because that's what they want and feel happy and enough with that. Some because they can't work to get money.
That's one of the reasons why you should be gratefull for what you have got.
Sometimes we need to look down, not just up.
quote:
I only Became a better person AFTER I stopped believing... was it Gods plan for me to become an Atheist/Agnostic?
What do you mean by "Became a better person"?
I don't know God's plan for you. Like what I have said before, God works in a mysterious way.
DC, I'm sorry to hear about your parents.
Always good luck on your life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by DC85, posted 03-15-2004 10:21 PM DC85 has not replied

  
Chris
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 33 (92708)
03-16-2004 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua
03-16-2004 6:00 AM


Dear Stephen,
You said:
quote:
Christians are almost impossible to save.
What religion do you suggest?
I read your posts regarding Yeshua, isn't it the same as Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-16-2004 6:00 AM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 03-16-2004 11:19 AM Chris has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024