COVID vaccine works - we're saved!

Kleinman:

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Should you be required to get medical care?

Percy:

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Depends.

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Depends on what?

Kleinman:

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Why should doctors be frustrated that insurance companies be involved in medical decisions?

Percy:

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It's obvious why.

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Do you think that others should pay for your medical care? If you think others should pay for your care, explain why?

Kleinman:

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What is that context for Covid?

Percy:

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Depends.

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Depends on what?

Kleinman:

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Is that the same real world that doesn't discern your view?

Percy:

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?

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Do you think that everyone in the real world agrees with your view. If not, why?

Kleinman:

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You have already admitted that you may be harboring microbes that can cause serious or fatal diseases. Should you be self-isolating? If not, why not?

Percy:

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Contagiousness.

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How do you determine that?

Kleinman:

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Did I say I was experienced as a website administrator?

Percy:

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No.

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How did my telling you that I do CME in pulmonary and intensive care cause you to bring up website administrators?

Kleinman:

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When should that treatment start?

Percy:

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Medical decision.

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How should that medical decision be made?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that a patient should take their antibiotics even if they are not showing any clinical benefit?

Percy:

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I don't know.

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Would you want to take a medicine that shows no clinical change in your condition?

Kleinman:

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What do you mean by "replication" and "generation"?

Percy:

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I'm not the one who used those terms, you were, in your Felsenstein quote and your response to it. I only asked if by "replications" you meant the same thing as Felsenstein did by "generations", because if you didn't then you didn't actually respond to what he said.

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Both you and Tangle brought up my discussions with Felsenstein on Panda's Thumb. Do you think that Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics of the Lenski experiment because it would take too long? Among other things, the Lenski experiment demonstrates phylogenetics. Why wouldn't Felsenstein want to demonstrate his mathematics of phylogenetics on a repeatable experimental example?

Kleinman:

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Should you be required to get medical care?

Percy:

---

Depends.

Kleinman:

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Depends on what?

Percy:

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On the same things I said last time you asked this question.

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Why shouldn't you be confined?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that others should pay for your medical care? If you think others should pay for your care, explain why?

Percy:

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I think societies should share in the expense of maintaining the health of their citizens.

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Do you think that society should pay for STDs? And if so, why.

Kleinman:

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What is that context for Covid?

Percy:

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Depends.

Kleinman:

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Depends on what?

Percy:

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On the context of any discussion about covid.

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You are still not clear. In what context should people be compelled to get medical care for Covid. Should people be compelled to get medical care for influenza or STDs or any infectious medical condition?

Kleinman:

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Is that the same real world that doesn't discern your view?

Percy:

---

?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that everyone in the real world agrees with your view. If not, why?

Percy:

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I don't think there's any view that everyone in the real world agrees with. But the real world is the ultimate arbiter of what is true.

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Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?

Kleinman:

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You have already admitted that you may be harboring microbes that can cause serious or fatal diseases. Should you be self-isolating? If not, why not?

Percy:

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Contagiousness.

Kleinman:

---

How do you determine that?

Percy:

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Research studies.

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What research study shows that you will never transmit an infectious disease?

Kleinman:

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Did I say I was experienced as a website administrator?

Percy:

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No.

Kleinman:

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How did my telling you that I do CME in pulmonary and intensive care cause you to bring up website administrators?

Percy:

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The first to mention website administrators was you in Message 909.

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I said the following in Message 909

Kleinman:

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I realize your experience as a website administrator makes you much more knowledgeable in this topic.

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You are angry because I have spent decades studying and treating people with infectious diseases and you haven't and I called you out on this.

Kleinman:

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When should that treatment start?

Percy:

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Medical decision.

Kleinman:

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How should that medical decision be made?

Percy:

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By medical professionals.

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Why would people use the cliche "You can't treat viral diseases with antibiotics"? What is the incidence of people with Covid that died from bacterial pneumonia? Even the rhinovirus which is implicated in the common cold can cause serious disease.
Common Cold | Disease or Condition of the Week | CDC Fatal Respiratory Infections Associated with Rhinovirus Outbreak, Vietnam - Volume 18, Number 11—November 2012 - Emerging Infectious Diseases journal - CDC Should you be confined if you have a cold?

Kleinman:

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Would you want to take a medicine that shows no clinical change in your condition?

Percy:

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I would listen to my doctors' reasons for continuing the regimen and make a decision based on that. And then there are those diseases where maintaining the status quo is a good thing, such as Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy.

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Is Covid anything like Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy? I had a friend who was a full professor of Neurology that thought that Parkinson's could be caused by influenza and that OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) can be a consequence of Group A Strep infection.

Kleinman:

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Felsenstein refuses to do the mathematics of the Lenski experiment because it would take too long?

Percy:

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He seemed to be implying that the effort would exceed the benefit.

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That might seem to be what Felsenstein is implying but wouldn't he want to test his model of phylogenetics against a real, measurable, and repeatable example?

Kleinman:

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Among other things, the Lenski experiment demonstrates phylogenetics. Why wouldn't Felsenstein want to demonstrate his mathematics of phylogenetics on a repeatable experimental example?

Percy:

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You're asking the wrong person. I only noted that your response to Felsenstein used different terminology, making it appear that your response didn't actually address his concerns.

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I use the same terminology that Darwin uses and clearly define any terms I use. It is Felsenstein that doesn't do the mathematics of real examples such as the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments.

Theodoric:

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The gish gallop and strawman continue ad infinitum.

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You still haven't told us what your wife tells patients when she gives them antibiotics. It must be some big secret.

Kleinman:

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Why shouldn't you be confined?

Percy:

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This is just a reformulation of a question you've already asked. The answer hasn't changed.

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So you think that people should be confined if they have infectious diseases? Is Covid the only disease for which they should be confined or should they be confined for other infectious diseases?

Kleinman:

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Do you think that society should pay for STDs? And if so, why.

Percy:

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A healthy society benefits all.

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20% of Americans have an STD, is that a healthy society? Many of these diseases are life-threatening and drug resistance is appearing in many others.

Kleinman:

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You are still not clear. In what context should people be compelled to get medical care for Covid. Should people be compelled to get medical care for influenza or STDs or any infectious medical condition?

Percy:

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You keep asking the same questions in different ways. If it's because you disagree perhaps you should describe your own position.

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I've already given you my position on this subject, don't you remember?

Kleinman:

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Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?

Percy:

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The real world is never wrong.

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What, no smilie?

Kleinman:

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What research study shows that you will never transmit an infectious disease?

Percy:

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None.

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Somebody confine Percy, there is no research that shows that he won't transmit an infectious disease.

Kleinman:

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You are angry because I have spent decades studying and treating people with infectious diseases and you haven't and I called you out on this.

Percy:

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Oh. Interesting.

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That's interesting that you find that interesting.

Kleinman:

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Why would people use the cliche "You can't treat viral diseases with antibiotics"?

Percy:

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Antibiotics have no effect on viruses.

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That is not necessarily correct.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/...ticle/pii/S0014299921003447

Kleinman:

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What is the incidence of people with Covid that died from bacterial pneumonia?

Percy:

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Pretty high.

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Do you think the incidence of bacterial pneumonia could have been reduced if they had been given antibiotics (such as Azithromycin) early in the episode?

Kleinman:

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Even the rhinovirus which is implicated in the common cold can cause serious disease.

Percy:

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E. coli, too.

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You might be surprised at the number of lethal pathogens that you are exposed to every day.

Kleinman:

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Should you be confined if you have a cold?

Percy:

---

You keep asking the same questions in different ways. The answer hasn't changed.

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What are the conditions that someone should be confined or lose their job due to any infectious disease?

Kleinman:

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Is Covid anything like Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy?

Percy:

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No.

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Parkinson's is a consequence of the destruction of the substantia nigra, muscular dystrophy is a genetic disease. Covid is a viral disease. Influenza has been implicated as a causative factor for Parkinson's. Should influenza patients be confined?

Kleinman:

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That might seem to be what Felsenstein is implying but wouldn't he want to test his model of phylogenetics against a real, measurable, and repeatable example?

Percy:

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Sounded like he'd like to but that the felt the benefit wasn't worth the effort.

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It certainly won't benefit his work on phylogenetics. It would reveal he is doing his mathematics incorrectly.

Kleinman:

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I use the same terminology that Darwin uses and clearly define any terms I use.

Percy:

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The word "replication" never appears in Origin of Species.

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Do you think that Darwin understood DNA? He did understand the concept of "reproduction", he used the term dozens of times. So, what does "reproduction" mean?
Reproduction Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster Reproduction | Definition, Examples, Types, Importance, & Facts | Britannica

AZPaul3:

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He can't tell them anything. He's not allowed a prescription pad anymore.

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Are you trying to set a record for the number of times you can be wrong?

AZPaul3:

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No. You sure try hard to set some.

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Shouldn't I at least get a participation medal?

Theodoric:

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Because it is irrelevant to the discussion.

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Perhaps you shouldn't tell your wife that she is irrelevant to the discussion and that no one cares what she tells her patients when she starts them on antibiotics.

xongsmith:

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Kleinbottle restates his remark most of us interpreted as sarcastic:

Kleinman:

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I realize your experience as a website administrator makes you much more knowledgeable in this topic.

xongsmith:

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I think you got most of us confused over what you meant by your term, "this topic". Percy and the rest of us thought you meant the topic of this thread, Covid & evolution. if you has written it "more knowledgeable in that area" we might have understood what you were blabbing on about website administration as a way of agreeing that experience in a particular field makes you more knowledgeable in that particular field. .

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You don't need my help to be confused, you do it quite well on your own.

Kleinman:

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Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?

Percy:

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The real world is never wrong.

xongsmith:

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But the consensus can be. At one time a majority of people thought the world was flat.
​
Today by my estimate some roughly 90% of the world still thinks that
there is a supernatural being who created the universe.
Or that there is a "spiritual world".
Or that any supernatural things exist in the real world,
the natural world.
​
BUT THAT IS OFF TOPIC.

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xongsmith will now prove to us that God does not exist. And then to get back on topic, he will explain why the Covid (or for that matter any) vaccine is not 100% effective.

Theodoric:

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But I never said that about my wife. You are a liar. Lying is not only bad form but also against forum rules.

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Does your wife know what to tell her patients when she prescribes antibiotics? If so, what is it?

Kleinman:

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Shouldn't I at least get a participation medal?

AZPaul3:

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The state took that away from you when they yanked your medical license.

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The medical board yanked my medical license just like the publisher yanked these two papers.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Check this out yanker.
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection - PubMed
and
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance - PubMed
You should report this to Retraction Watch – Tracking retractions as a window into the scientific process . You will straighten this out.

Kleinman:

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20% of Americans have an STD, is that a healthy society?

Percy:

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You can continue asking the same question in different ways, but my answer is the same. Societies should share the cost of health because a healthy society benefits all.

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If some stranger moves into your home, you can't tell him to leave because he has a right to housing. Make sure your refrigerator is full, you don't want that person to go hungry. You really like to be generous with other people's money.

Kleinman:

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Many of these diseases are life-threatening and drug resistance is appearing in many others.

Percy:

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Sounds like a large and difficult problem that only society as a whole could tackle.

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Why don't you list for us the major factors that help prevent the spread of these diseases?

Kleinman:

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I've already given you my position on this subject, don't you remember?

Percy:

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Of course, but the nature of your continued questions strongly hints that you have more to say.

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The nature of my questions should give you a hint that you aren't stating your position. Who should be locked up for engaging in activity that increases the risk of spreading a contagious disease?

Kleinman:

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Does the real world ever come to a consensus that is wrong? If so, why are they found to be wrong?

Percy:

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The real world is never wrong.

Kleinman:

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What, no smilie?

Percy:

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No, no smilie, I was serious. You may have misinterpreted what I meant by real world. I was using it as a synonym for laws of the universe or natural physical laws, not the planet's population.

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So has xongsmith, he brought up flat earth.

Kleinman:

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What research study shows that you will never transmit an infectious disease?

Percy:

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None.

Kleinman:

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Somebody confine Percy, there is no research that shows that he won't transmit an infectious disease.

Percy:

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No such research exists for any of us, including you. And as I said previously, isolation must take into account both degree of contagiousness and the severity of the disease. A highly contagious disease that for most individuals presents with very mild symptoms, such as a cold, requires no isolation. But isolation might be considered for highly contagious diseases that can cause severe illness or death.

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Sorry, you need smilies to know when I'm being sarcastic. But your response to this is interesting, it shows that you don't know under which conditions what some consider a mild disease that is highly contagious can be serious to some people.

Kleinman:

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Why would people use the cliche "You can't treat viral diseases with antibiotics"?

Percy:

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Antibiotics have no effect on viruses.

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That is not necessarily correct.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/...ticle/pii/S0014299921003447

Percy:

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Studies have found that azithromycin is not an effective treatment for covid, including when combined with hydroxychloroquine. For example, this is from the Interpretation section of Azithromycin for community treatment of suspected COVID-19 in people at increased risk of an adverse clinical course in the UK (PRINCIPLE): a randomised, controlled, open-label, adaptive platform tria:

​

quote:

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Our findings do not justify the routine use of azithromycin for reducing time to recovery or risk of hospitalisation for people with suspected COVID-19 in the community. These findings have important antibiotic stewardship implications during this pandemic, as inappropriate use of antibiotics leads to increased antimicrobial resistance, and there is evidence that azithromycin use increased during the pandemic in the UK.

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​

And this is from the Discussion section of Azithromycin versus standard care in patients with mild-to-moderate COVID-19 (ATOMIC2): an open-label, randomised trial:

​

quote:

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In conclusion, our findings in mild-to-moderate COVID-19 managed in ambulatory care, taken together with trials in early disease in primary care and from trials in patients admitted to hospital with severe disease, suggest that azithromycin does not reduce hospital admissions, respiratory failure, or death compared with standard care, and should not be used in the treatment of COVID-19.

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Kleinman:

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Studies have found that azithromycin is not an effective treatment for covid, including when combined with hydroxychloroquine. For example, this is from the Interpretation section of Azithromycin for community treatment of suspected COVID-19 in people at increased risk of an adverse clinical course in the UK (PRINCIPLE): a randomised, controlled, open-label, adaptive platform tria:

​

quote:

---

Our findings do not justify the routine use of azithromycin for reducing time to recovery or risk of hospitalisation for people with suspected COVID-19 in the community. These findings have important antibiotic stewardship implications during this pandemic, as inappropriate use of antibiotics leads to increased antimicrobial resistance, and there is evidence that azithromycin use increased during the pandemic in the UK.

---

​

And this is from the Discussion section of Azithromycin versus standard care in patients with mild-to-moderate COVID-19 (ATOMIC2): an open-label, randomised trial:

​

quote:

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In conclusion, our findings in mild-to-moderate COVID-19 managed in ambulatory care, taken together with trials in early disease in primary care and from trials in patients admitted to hospital with severe disease, suggest that azithromycin does not reduce hospital admissions, respiratory failure, or death compared with standard care, and should not be used in the treatment of COVID-19.

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Percy:

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It would make sense that anticipating opportunistic bacterial infections like pheumonia through early regimens of antibiotics like azithromycin on covid patients who have not yet contracted pneumonia would have a beneficial impact, but studies did not find one.

​

As far as the antiviral effects of antibiotics, it's a large and complicated world out there. While antibiotics do not as a rule have any impact on viral infections, it is not inconceivable that there are cases where an antibiotic through some indirect channels has a measurable positive effect. Despite the findings of some researchers azithromycin didn't pan out, either to prevent pneumonia or to improve covid outcomes, and a casual Google search didn't turn up any antibiotics suggested for use with viral infections. But that doesn't mean none exist.

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I can tell you are a gambler and you would withhold antibiotics to someone with Covid based on the study you have presented because your risk/benefit calculation says the risks would outweigh the benefit. That may explain why pneumonia is one of the top reasons for hospital admission.
Causes of hospitalization in the USA between 2005 and 2018 | European Heart Journal Open | Oxford Academic
See Table 1As far as the antiviral effect of azithromycin, check this out.
Role of azithromycin in antiviral treatment: enhancement of interferon-dependent antiviral pathways and mitigation of inflammation may rely on inhibition of the MAPK cascade? - PubMed

Kleinman:

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Even the rhinovirus which is implicated in the common cold can cause serious disease.

Percy:

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E. coli, too.

Kleinman:

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You might be surprised at the number of lethal pathogens that you are exposed to every day.

Percy:

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But we don't worry about them because they are so rarely lethal, and usually only for people with comorbidities such as cancer or advanced age.

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Rhinoviruses: Common Colds | CDC There are many other papers that show the danger of rhinoviruses and other viruses considered mild by many people. The people at the CDC understand this but you don't.

Kleinman:

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What are the conditions that someone should be confined or lose their job due to any infectious disease?

Percy:

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You keep asking the same question in different ways. The answer hasn't changed. If there's a point you're trying to make beyond what you've already said then it would probably work better if you just stated it.

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I keep asking this because your answer is so vague. Where do you draw the line where you should confine someone?

Kleinman:

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Is Covid anything like Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy?

Percy:

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No.

Kleinman:

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Parkinson's is a consequence of the destruction of the substantia nigra, muscular dystrophy is a genetic disease. Covid is a viral disease. Influenza has been implicated as a causative factor for Parkinson's. Should influenza patients be confined?

Percy:

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How high are the risk factors?

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I don't know and you don't know. What Neurologists point to is the big jump in the incidence of Parkinson's disease in the 1930's after the Spanish Flu epidemic a decade earlier.

Kleinman:

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It certainly won't benefit his work on phylogenetics. It would reveal he is doing his mathematics incorrectly.

Percy:

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I think Felsenstein's actual point was that your math was already wrong at a basic level, and so there was no need to demonstrate that again in a more complex context.

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The problem for you and Felsenstein is that the math that I've presented fits the experimental data. Felsenstein doesn't produce a model that fits the experimental data even though he could, considering he wrote a text on the subject. Felsenstein is also unable to explain the thermodynamics of biological evolution.

Kleinman:

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I use the same terminology that Darwin uses and clearly define any terms I use.

Percy:

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The word "replication" never appears in Origin of Species.

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Kleinman:

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Do you think that Darwin understood DNA? He did understand the concept of "reproduction",...etc...

Percy:

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I only pointed out that Felsenstein used the term "generations" while you used the term "replications", and since you claim they're not synonymous that means you didn't actually address what Felsenstein said. You attempted to rebut this by claiming you used the same terminology as Darwin, but Darwin never used the term "replication." You then attempted a further defense by irrelevantly changing the subject to DNA and reproduction.
​
The original question concerned your response to Felsenstein's comments. He employed the term "generations", but your response used the term "replications", and you said they do not mean the same thing. This makes it appear that you did not actually address what Felsenstein said. You need to respond to Felsenstein's comments in a way that actually addresses his concerns.

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Both generations and replications are variables used when describing the mathematical behavior of biological evolution. However, it is the total number of replications that a variant can do that determines the probability of an adaptive mutation occurring.Perhaps I should have asked the question this way. Why does it take a billion reproductions for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments?Is that question so confusing?

Kleinman:

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xongsmith will now prove to us that God does not exist.

xongsmith:

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I said it was OFF TOPIC. Apparently you cannot read.

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And

Kleinman:

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And then to get back on topic, he will explain why the Covid (or for that matter any) vaccine is not 100% effective.

xongsmith:

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I roll my eyes and think to myself "Jeezo, what a shitfuck this Kleinman is. An unmitigated SHITFUCK."
Then I post that here.
​
How does it feel? To be all alone?

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Don't worry xongsmith, everyone knows you can't explain either.

Theodoric:

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Again as I said before, that is irrelevant to this topic. Are just going to continue repeating this?

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You brought up that your wife is a physician. Doesn't she know what to say when giving her patients antibiotics?

xongsmith:

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Re: Message 936 the Kleinbottle is a SHITFUCK.
​
He must love how it feels - he does it so often.

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xongsmith can't show that there is no God and can't explain why vaccines are not 100% effective so he does what he can do best.