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Author | Topic: COVID vaccine works - we're saved! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman: You said the following in Message 662.
Percy:Isn't this thread about the spread of Covid and other infectious diseases such as tuberculosis? I don't think you understand how vaccines work even though you say you do. A vaccine doesn't protect you from getting infected with the given disease or necessarily prevent the spread of the disease. The evolution of resistance to a vaccine obeys the same mathematics as the evolution of resistance to any other selection pressure.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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I'll recuse myself from discussion for the requisite two days then assume moderatorship of this thread.
--Percy
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Percy:I hope all is well with you and look forward to continuing the discussion with you then. In the meantime, you might consider the following. From THE LANCET The overlooked pandemic of antimicrobial resistance As COVID-19 rages on, the pandemic of antimicrobial resistance (AMR) continues in the shadows. The toll taken by AMR on patients and their families is largely invisible but is reflected in prolonged bacterial infections that extend hospital stays and cause needless deaths.1 Moreover, AMR disproportionately affects poor individuals who have little access to second-line, more expensive antibiotics that could work when first-line drugs fail.
From FOX NEWS
'Silent pandemic' warning from WHO: Bacteria killing too many people due to antimicrobial resistance The World Health Organization (WHO) is warning of a "silent pandemic" of antimicrobial resistance from infections caused by deadly pathogens that doctors are not able to cure because of a lack of novel agents.
And the following link is from MSN.com:
That’s according to an early release of special presentations by Dr. Valeria Gigante and Professor Venkatasubramanian Ramasubramanian of an online "pre-meeting" of the European Congress of Clinical Microbiology & Infectious Diseases on April 15 to 18 in Copenhagen, Denmark. "Antibiotic resistance is one of the major concerns in modern medicine today," Dr. Aaron Glatt, chief of infectious diseases at Mount Sinai South Nassau Hospital on Long Island, New York, told Fox News Digital.WHO warns of a ‘Silent pandemic’ “Antimicrobial resistance” from infections caused by deadly pathogens may cause a silent pandemic says the World Health Organization (WHO) as doctors will not be able to provide treatment and cure because of a lack of novel agents.
I could post many other references to this problem if you want. The point you need to understand is that it is much easier to solve a problem if you understand it first. Teaching medical providers that reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals is not the way to teach how drug resistance evolves, our silent pandemic.
“Antibiotic resistance is one of the major concerns in modern medicine today,” Dr Aaron Glatt, chief of infectious diseases at Mount Sinai South Nassau Hospital on Long Island, New York, told Fox News Digital. “There is a dearth of safe, effective, and inexpensive agents to use to treat many of these significant infections,” added Glatt.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Kleinman writes:
The thread is about the COVID vaccine. The clue is in the title and the post #1.
Isn't this thread about the spread of Covid and other infectious diseases such as tuberculosis? I don't think you understand how vaccines work even though you say you do.
I suspect that we DO know how vaccines work but I also suspect that you're going to say something incredibly dumb about them that flies in the face of all known facts.
A vaccine doesn't protect you from getting infected with the given disease or necessarily prevent the spread of the disease. And there it is. Full on stupid.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
irrelevant to this topic.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman: Tangle's title for this thread:Saved from what? Kleinman:Tell us all you learned about how vaccines work in your zoology courses. Then you can tell us how drug resistance evolves and why cancer treatments fail. Kleinman:Even your own first post shows you are wrong. Tangle:Why isn't the vaccine 100% effective? Why don't you explain how vaccines work since you have so much experience using them and you learned all about them in your zoology courses?
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Theodoric:Has your wife explained to you how drug resistance evolves since it is a silent pandemic according to the World Health Organization?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Kleinman is leading the discussion off-topic, as he has multiple topics so far. Time to stop feeding the troll.
We may see some moderation in a couple of days to get us back on topic. What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Tangle writes: A vaccine doesn't protect you from getting infected with the given disease or necessarily prevent the spread of the disease. And there it is. Full on stupid. This seems relevant to covid, so I'll comment. A vaccine ramps up the immune system to target a specific type of pathogen. The immune system is a complex system that can maintain, to varying extents dependent upon pathogen, a history of past infections. Because the cells of the immune system exist only within the body, they cannot mount a defense against a pathogen until it enters the body and is detected by the immune system. In other words, the immune system cannot begin to do it's job until you're already infected. What usually happens with a successfully vaccinated person is that the pathogen enters the body and is detected by the immune system, which then fights it off. Oftentimes the person does not even know he was ever infected. Whether a pathogen spreads through a population is dependent upon many factors, including existing immunity (which doesn't really mean immunity in this context), the vaccination rate, the effectiveness of the vaccine, the effectiveness of its administration, and individual response to the vaccine. This is all information that has been presented in this thread before. See Message 254 for a better explanation of immunity and how the immune system works. --Percy
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:The point that you are missing is that no vaccine can be 100% effective because the infectious agent does not consist of 100% clones. There is diversity in that population and unless the antibody can cross-react with all variants, the vaccine will not be 100% effective. That's why different influenza vaccines need to be used every year and even then, the trivalent vaccine can miss the intended target. The reason why the population does not consist of clones is descent with modification. Some of those modifications will give resistant variants. You also need to consider that some people will not produce the appropriate antibodies when given a particular antigen (vaccine) because they don't have the appropriate genetics.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
the Kleinbottle replies:
The point that you are missing is that no vaccine can be 100% effective because the infectious agent does not consist of 100% clones. Well, jeez, Sherlock...who'd a thunk it. DUH. The point you're missing it that vaccines are often ENOUGH to prevent a calamitous spreading across a population.And trained professionals are busy addressing the viral evolution even as we speak. You do not have the right to spread a contagious disease, period. Seatbelts are not 100% effective. Do you wear a seatbelt?"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside." Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned! Enjoy every sandwich! - xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Seatbelts are not 100% effective because of descent with modification, that's the reason that vaccines are not 100% effective. You don't have the right to spread a contagious disease but infected people do spread contagious diseases. Do you want to lock up everyone that has a contagious disease?
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Kleinman writes: The point that you are missing is that no vaccine can be 100% effective because the infectious agent does not consist of 100% clones. There is diversity in that population and unless the antibody can cross-react with all variants, the vaccine will not be 100% effective. That's why different influenza vaccines need to be used every year and even then, the trivalent vaccine can miss the intended target. The reason why the population does not consist of clones is descent with modification. Some of those modifications will give resistant variants. You also need to consider that some people will not produce the appropriate antibodies when given a particular antigen (vaccine) because they don't have the appropriate genetics. Let me rewrite this for you in a way that makes it seem like you're trying to be informative and helpful:
Kleinman as rewritten by Percy: --Percy
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Kleinman Member (Idle past 364 days) Posts: 2142 From: United States Joined: |
Kleinman:Are you telling me that the people on this forum are interested in being informed? Why don't you rewrite the mathematics I've presented that explains descent with modification and adaptation which defeats the effectiveness of vaccines, antimicrobial treatments, and cancer treatments when used as single drug therapies by selecting for drug-resistant variants including Covid? Perhaps you could find a way of explaining to the members why evolution (descent with modification and adaptation) to multiple simultaneous selection pressures is much more difficult for a population to do because of the multiplication rule of probabilities. Natural selection has limitations.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
more from Kleinman:
Seatbelts are not 100% effective because of descent with modification, that's the reason that vaccines are not 100% effective. OK, so among the many reasons, probably more the variation of the accident, but so what? The current work on new vaccines is never 100, but 90 is enough to slow down the rate. Nurses were asked about masking during the flu season and they are for it, even before COVID arrived.
Do you want to lock up everyone that has a contagious disease? No. Perhaps they should properly mask up!"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside." Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned! Enjoy every sandwich! - xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale
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