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Author
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Topic: The War in Europe
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 659 of 1124 (893475)
04-14-2022 3:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 658 by Percy
04-14-2022 1:36 PM
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Percy writes: A virtual chocolate egg? Who cares. It's a pride thing.
If you don't like the stakes I suggested then suggest something else, but at least make them tangible and interesting. I usually offer my daughter but these days she doesn't take much notice of my commands.
But before you make a bet with substance keep in mind that all 30 NATO member states must approve. How approval is conferred differs from country to country. Their political calendars vary all over the map. There will inevitably be political considerations. Hungary leans uncomfortably toward Russia anyway. Your confidence is hard to fathom. You find a lot about other people's thoughts about this war hard to fathom. Opinions are like that.
No one expects you to change your mind just on someone else's say so, but what can reasonably be expected is a response with evidence and/or argument instead of just "nyuh-uh," which is all you've apparently got. Well I do have Article 5 but let's hope we never find out eh?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 658 by Percy, posted 04-14-2022 1:36 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 663 by Percy, posted 04-14-2022 5:55 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 660 of 1124 (893476)
04-14-2022 5:11 PM
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Gotcha! Russian warship: Moskva sinks in Black Sea - BBC News
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 661 by AZPaul3, posted 04-14-2022 5:19 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 664 of 1124 (893480)
04-14-2022 6:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 663 by Percy
04-14-2022 5:55 PM
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Percy writes: I explained why your opinions make no sense Yes you have said these things. What you don't seem to understand is that the fact that you say it doesn't make it correct or something that someone else need agree with. You've made your arguments, I've read and understood them, I disagree. I believe that's allowed. I'm not repeating earlier discussions
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 663 by Percy, posted 04-14-2022 5:55 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 665 by Percy, posted 04-15-2022 8:32 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 667 of 1124 (893503)
04-15-2022 11:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 666 by Percy
04-15-2022 8:40 AM
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Re: Russia Warns US to Stop Arming Ukraine
Percy writes: Summarizing, Russia is warning us of "unpredictable consequences" if we continue arming Ukraine with certain weapon systems, and one Russia analyst believes that attacks on NATO territory are possible. I assume you're not taking any of this seriously? I mean, of course Russia is pissed off about it, and of course they're going to threaten all manner of stuff to achieve their ends. But so far the West has steadily increased pressure by supplying increasingly good defensive arms and stopped short of becoming engaged itself. We need more and better arms to be supplied even faster. Putin is struggling now, just trying to roll over a single much smaller country, the very last thing he's going to do is risk engaging the big boys standing behind the small boy. Won't stop him shouting and waving his hands around though.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 666 by Percy, posted 04-15-2022 8:40 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 674 of 1124 (893520)
04-15-2022 4:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 672 by jar
04-15-2022 3:48 PM
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ditto
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 672 by jar, posted 04-15-2022 3:48 PM | | jar has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 676 of 1124 (893523)
04-15-2022 4:38 PM
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But anyway ... I've been trying to work out what happened with the Moskva. Moskva mean Moscow of course so the Ukrainians are rather pleased to be able to say that they sank Moscow. Russia claims a fire in the munitions room causing an explosion and that all sailors were rescued and the Moskva sank in high seas while being towed to port. Ukraine says that it sank the Moskva with two Neptune land to sea missiles.The also say that they used a Turkish drone to occupy its radar before attacking. The West says there was cloud cover so satellites couldn't see what happened. (No infra red?). But it also says that they believe that the ship was sailing towards port under its own steam when it sank and it doubts many survived. There are unconfirmed reports that the Commander of the Black Sea Fleet Admiral Igor Osipov has been arrested in Russia. Then Russia bombs the Ukrainian factory that makes the Neptune missiles. Why they would do that directly after the sinking if their ship sank by 'natural causes' is a mystery. Obviously the Ukrainians did it and it was a real coup. It may take the Russian navy out of the game, or at least make them very cautious. Russia is also complaining that Ukraine is attacking Russia in Russia and warning of dire consequences. The Ukrainians are, it seems, hitting the supply lines of the new invasion lines moving from the North to the East. Russia seems to think that isn't playing fair. Meanwhile it seems like only hours or days before Mariupol falls. Poor sods. Russia is now following a policy of flattening cities if they can't take them, hough they are trying to keep the actual ports unmolested. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 681 by Percy, posted 04-16-2022 9:16 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 680 of 1124 (893535)
04-16-2022 3:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 673 by Percy
04-15-2022 3:56 PM
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Re: Russia Warns US to Stop Arming Ukraine
Percy writes: We care very much about "what Russia wants/needs/demands." If we didn't we'd be much less circumspect in the assistance we provide Ukraine. We are taking absolutely no notice of what Putin demands. We are making our own calculations of what actions to take.
quote:
Russia sent a formal warning to the US not to send more arms to Ukraine or it could face “unpredictable consequences”, it has been reported. According to the Washington Post, Moscow sent a diplomatic note, a démarche, warning that US and Nato deliveries of the “most sensitive” weapons systems to Ukraine were “adding fuel” to the conflict there and could bring “unpredictable consequences”. A spokesperson said the state department did not confirm any diplomatic correspondence as a matter of course, and made clear that the US would continue to send arms to Ukraine. “What we can confirm is that, along with allies and partners, we are providing Ukraine with billions of dollars worth of security assistance, which our Ukrainian partners are using to extraordinary effect to defend their country against Russia’s unprovoked aggression and horrific acts of violence,” the spokesperson said. The Russian embassy in Ukraine did not respond to a request for comment.
The day after receipt of this 'note', Biden announced that he was sending another $800m of arms.
quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — In anticipation of a new Russian offensive in eastern Ukraine, President Joe Biden on Wednesday approved an $800 million package of military assistance, including additional helicopters and the first provision of American artillery. The Ukrainians also will receive armored personnel carriers, armored Humvees, naval drone vessels used in coastal defense, and gear and equipment used to protect soldiers in chemical, biological, nuclear and radiological attacks. “This new package of assistance will contain many of the highly effective weapons systems we have already provided and new capabilities tailored to the wider assault we expect Russia to launch in eastern Ukraine,” Biden said in a statement.
Russia warns US of repercussions if it sends more arms to Ukraine – reports | Ukraine | The Guardian Biden approves $800M in new military assistance for Ukraine | AP News Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 673 by Percy, posted 04-15-2022 3:56 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 682 by Percy, posted 04-16-2022 10:26 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 683 of 1124 (893541)
04-16-2022 10:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 682 by Percy
04-16-2022 10:26 AM
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Re: Russia Warns US to Stop Arming Ukraine
NATO is neither doing exactly what Ukraine wants nor exactly what Putin wants. It's making up its own mind about how best to help Ukraine without causing Russia to do something that could lead to an all out war with the NATO. We're not going full tilt into this war, not because of anything he's saying/wanting/demanding but because we have intelligence about what he's militarily capable of. He can posture, demand, threaten, whatever - nobody is listening because he can't be trusted and it's all part of his game (hence sending $800m arms the day after Putin told us not to). What matters is what he could do if we get it wrong. We're watching what is
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 682 by Percy, posted 04-16-2022 10:26 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 687 by Percy, posted 04-16-2022 12:44 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 703 of 1124 (893729)
04-19-2022 3:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 702 by AZPaul3
04-18-2022 7:24 PM
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Re: Sweden
No one here is making a link. Dunno about within Sweden.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 702 by AZPaul3, posted 04-18-2022 7:24 PM | | AZPaul3 has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 706 of 1124 (893912)
04-23-2022 10:20 AM
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There are a few reports of the European stance hardening a little against Putin, but it's agonisingly slow. It's really unfortunate that the democratic world hasn't got this together yet, what it's doing - apart from destroying Ukraine and screwing up the world's economy - is telling all the world's despots that you have to have a few nukes, then no-one will touch you.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 707 by Theodoric, posted 04-23-2022 10:38 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 708 of 1124 (893915)
04-23-2022 12:35 PM
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oops Ukraine LIVE: Fresh Putin humiliation as 50 Russian army top brass annihilated in ONE day FIFTY senior Russians officers are believed to have been wiped out in a Ukrainian artillery attack on a Russian command post in the Kherson region. Ukraine news: Fresh Putin humiliation as 50 Russian army top brass annihilated in ONE day | World | News | Express.co.uk (Caution: The Daily Express (Excess) is not my favourite source. Reuters may have more)
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 713 of 1124 (893961)
04-25-2022 5:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 712 by Percy
04-25-2022 5:14 PM
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Re: Finland and Sweden Getting Nearer Application for NATO Membership
Percy writes: According to Sweden and Finland agree to submit Nato applications, say reports and Finland, Sweden to begin NATO application in May, say local media reports, Nordic media reports that Finnish and Swedish leaders will meet the week of May 16 to coordinate announcement of their plans to apply for NATO membership. Double or quits?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 712 by Percy, posted 04-25-2022 5:14 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 717 of 1124 (893972)
04-26-2022 1:14 PM
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Also a couple of fairly major changes from the West The US is becoming clearer on what it wants to achieve "The US pledged to move "heaven and earth" to make sure Ukraine defeats Russia. Austin said "Ukraine clearly believes that it can win and so does everyone here" The US defence secretary said they "want to make it harder for Russia to threaten its neighbours" " And Germany is sending real weapons "Germany's ambassador to the US Emily Haber says that in addition to sending anti-aircraft tanks to Ukraine, as we've been reporting, Germany will also be training Ukrainian soldiers on German soil."
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 719 of 1124 (893976)
04-27-2022 9:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 718 by Percy
04-27-2022 7:08 AM
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Re: Russia Threatens to Go Nuclear
I think they think we're cheating.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 718 by Percy, posted 04-27-2022 7:08 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 722 of 1124 (893979)
04-27-2022 1:39 PM
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Well this is fun. They're getting worried aren't they?
Russia has threatened to strike British targets in Nato territory because it is supplying weapons to Ukraine and supporting its raids against Putin's army. Moscow's defence ministry said any backing from London for Ukrainian attacks on Russian soil would invite a "proportional response". Maria Zakharova, who speaks for the Russian foreign ministry, asked if "we understand" Moscow can attack Nato countries who support Kyiv on their own territory. The threats follows a series of apparent Ukrainian sabotage operations against targets throughout Russia, seeking to hamper the calamitous - but extremely bloody - attack on their country. Ms Zakharova, one of the most outspoken and prominent voices during the invasion, said: "Do we understand correctly that for the sake of disrupting the logistics of military supplies, Russia can strike military targets on the territory of those Nato countries that supply arms to the Kyiv regime? "After all, this directly leads to deaths and bloodshed on Ukrainian territory. As far as I understand, Britain is one of those countries." Russia threatens to strike against Britain over its support for Ukraine - LBC
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. Olen Suomi Soy Barcelona. I am Ukraine. "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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