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Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Humans have a choice. The ones who die suddenly without having known of a choice will not end up damned. Pick 'n Mix Christianity eh? It's called the Fate of the Unlearned. Depending on which random version of Christianity you grew up in you're either damned or you have a chance. Fate of the unlearned - Wikipedia The largest cult - Catholics - have people damned unless baptised Catholic but there are some slippery get-out clauses. If God is Catholic I think it could go either way for you Phat. Are you a betting man? Whereas I, an atheist, am baptised Catholic so I reckon I have as much chance as you. This religion stuff is complicated isn't it? Need a damn (?) good lawyer. Because you guys just make up the rules as you go along, you can have whichever version suits you.
Gods only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up. Sounds like you think it a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops!
Some could argue that God should have been nicey nice towards everything He created!!! er, yes... (are you completely mad?)
So should we blame God for allowing guns to exist? How about Nuclear weapons? Of course! He's the creator of all things is he not?
After all, if He were a loving character we wouldn't even have to hunt for our food. Do they hunt in Heaven? Did they in Paradise? Why is it necessary for animals to kill other animals to survive? Was this the best your small god could do?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Wait a minute! Jesus portrayed the Prodigal Son as the one begging for a corn cob. In that analogy, the Father welcomed his destitute son home with open arms after the son had squandered his inheritance. Jesus portrayed you in the pigsty begging for a corn cob. The other parable you use is the Rich Young Ruler. Evidently, you think that when Jesus talks about what He tells one individual to do, it applies to all of us. So how many other ways does Jesus portray me? Am I a rich young ruler who needs to sell all I have? Or am I a destitute son with no money who misses the life he had at his Fathers house? "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
So how many other ways does Jesus portray me? Am I a rich young ruler who needs to sell all I have? Or am I a destitute son with no money who misses the life he had at his Fathers house?
You will have to work that out for yourself. However, "Love thy neighbor" is supposed to apply to everyone. And the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matt 25) is intended for everyone. And those already demonstrate your failings.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: First of all, I do not believe that the truth is relative. Granted it seems arrogant and exclusivist to believe that the religion I happened to be raised with and was taught is the closest path to absolute truth, but I digress. Honesty is the best policy and I would imagine that we will be judged not only on what we *do* vs what we could have done but on our honesty regarding our beliefs in common with our actions. As Phat points out, whether we are talking about the Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Taoist faith, the actual message is all too often a Hard Teaching and that is not an easy thing to sell. It's much easier to sell salvation if you don't have to actually do anything to get it. |If it is indeed true that I will never gain points by ignoring what the character of Jesus says in the book, I will be judged accordingly. As for when the End Times are and how we would know, I think it is wiser to think of ourselves individually as having a set amount of time alive here on Earth and that if there is in fact a judge, He will deal with us at that point in time after we pass on. As to whether He knows what I will choose, how I will act and think, and the charge that I have been given...quite frankly I could care less. I most certainly will never say He is evil for having foreknown my destiny although it can be argued that He only knows those whom He accepts. To the others He merely says "depart from me I never knew you." Thus I can finally put that argument to rest. He knows those who are His. He does not know anyone else. And I can state that I believe that He does not only know Christians. He knows honest people of every faith, including atheism, who have lived their lives to the best of their abilities. As you once said, "the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both (what we do and what we could have done)"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
nwr writes: Is it a sin to love my family and close friends and perhaps my country before I start loving everyone in S.America or Africa? Is that not basic human nature? However, "Love thy neighbor" is supposed to apply to everyone. And the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matt 25) is intended for everyone. And those already demonstrate your failings. And just because I rant my carnal and insecure feelings here at EvC does not mean that I don't help people. I will admit that I live in fear of losing my material possessions or my life so in that sense you are correct in your assessment that I could be classified as a phony Christian. I will defend the fact that I am honest before you and before God Who hears and knows everything. And for the record, I highly doubt that more liberals will end up in Heaven than will Conservatives."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The largest cult - Catholics - have people damned unless baptized Catholic but there are some slippery get-out clauses. If God is Catholic I think it could go either way for you Phat. That's silly. God is no more Catholic than He is Protestant or Buddhist. God is simply God...Creator of all seen and unseen and Jesus Christ is His human character. Are you a betting man? Unfortunately yes...this is one of the addictions I struggle with.
Whereas I, an atheist, am baptized Catholic so I reckon I have as much chance as you. Chance does not exist. God does not play dice with the universe. This religion stuff is complicated isn't it? Need a damn (?) good lawyer. Jesus Christ is our defense attorney. Hint: Plead guilty. You will get a lighter sentence!
Because you guys just make up the rules as you go along, you can have whichever version suits you. What we humans imagine may or may not have a correlation with the actual truth and reality. This includes all scientific evidence. We can only know what is evident once it happens.
Phat writes: God's only crime, even given that the fallen angels exist, is in setting hell up. Sounds like you think it is a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops! Evil needed to exist to give us a choice. If you had a kid and commanded him to stay inside, he would have no free will were the outside to not exist. He would only truly have free will if he was given the power to disobey you. Your whole idea of God being put on trial due to His ultimate responsibility for...well, everything...is hardly a relevant argument if He in fact exists. You either fall on the Rock or the Rock falls on you!"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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Is it a sin to love my family and close friends and perhaps my country before I start loving everyone in S.America or Africa? Is that not basic human nature?
Aren't Christians suppose to strive to do better than basic human natureFundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: And it is even more arrogant to expect everyone to act as if your beliefs were true. And yet that’s what you do. You don’t recognise that you should follow your beliefs and other people should follow theirs.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I wonder why we bother?
Phat can't see the argument so can't answer it, yet we keep trying. I reckon we're as daft as him.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Oh, Phat can see the argument but refuses to consider it since the only possible conclusion is that the God marketed by the majority of Club Christian is evil and that to actually follow Jesus teachings is hard.
That ain't sizzle.My Website: My Website
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And what jar erroneously believes is that God is a human creation. He simply can't understand praying in communion with and not simply TO God. He finds comfort in the BCP, which I do agree with. He has logically and rationally defined God based on what he has read, and mocks far too many Christians. Maybe it is because so many of them supported Trump and the Republicans. Maybe because they are hypocrites. Hard telling. Maybe he was schooled in evidence and logic, reason, and reality so much that he chose his path and shunned the paths I have seen.
Most of you here are very similar in this. A kind empathetic secular humanism coupled with membership in a liberal church where you can think for yourself is very appealing to those who otherwise would be atheists. And I am no poster child for the truth. NWR points out my shallowness. But jar....seriously...I believe what I believe and don't believe that God is either created by humans or different characters in the good book. Your evidence stands, but you missed the whole relational thing. (You always ask how it is possible.) I am likely worse off, for as ringo says, I fight the charge that following Jesus must be difficult. My first job is to get my health back and my blood sugars down."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat can't see the argument so can't answer it, yet we keep trying. Oh I see the argument. I don't answer it because I honestly feel you are blinded to reality. Granted I have no objective evidence nor will I ever. What I actually do is question your arguments. I have to realize that you don't see what I see.
I reckon we're as daft as him. Well at least your blood sugar is under control. Mine is dropping....9.8% last time I checked as I had a toe amputated Friday.Replies to this message: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Tangle writes: Sounds like you think it a minor slip. Hitler's only mistake was gassing a million Jews! Oops! It might be several times more than that. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Fix quote.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Oh I see the argument. I don't answer it because I honestly feel you are blinded to reality. I'm blinded *by* reality. But really Phat, it doesn't matter what you think I am, you need to answer the question for your own sake. Just so you know you can - or not. Quit deflecting.
What I actually do is question your arguments.
What you do is ignore the question, then blather on about something else.
as I had a toe amputated Friday. Jesus ... no wonder you're away with the fairies. Do what the bloody doctors tell you; not the whacky quacky ones, the real ones.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: And if he has foreknowledge that ISIS will commit a suicide bomber attack at the Kabul airport that will kill 13 American troops and at least 45 Afghanis and he permits it to happen, then he is evil. What you guys don't understand is that God is under no obligation to save human lives. If you say so, but in that case he evil.
The fact that you label Him as evil tells me that you have another spirit within your logic. Yes, I have another spirit within me, one God apparently does not possess. It's called the spirit of compassion and mercy and humanity.
The same vibe that tells you He is evil is itself evil incarnate. I know that sounds whacky. Sure wacky, but also just a bald declaration with no basis in fact. It seems more like a gut reaction: "You insulted my God, so I'll insult you." You're not really having a discussion with the people here. You're just making a random series of unsupported assertions that have little to do with the posts you're replying to.
But you have never been a believer due to lack of objective evidence....as if everything in the universe needs objective evidence before humans can call it a reality. Well, duh.
If we still want to explore hypotheticals,... I don't think you know what that word means.
...maybe our next question is why I can believe in a God with no objective evidence and why such a God would want to be so vague. Why would you believe in anything that has no objective evidence, particularly something that is so inconstant and that has been the target of flim-flam since the beginning of time. --Percy
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