|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,902 Year: 4,159/9,624 Month: 1,030/974 Week: 357/286 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 506 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: When Will The End-Times Be And How Will We Know? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: Would it really matter whether God knew the outcome if, in fact, the individual had plenty of time to choose his path more wisely? Why do you keep asking contradictory questions? If God knew the outcome in advance then the individual could not have chosen it from free will. Whatever happened was preordained. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
|
Phat writes: I think I will argue that in the hypothetical, at the point of the initial "war in heaven" and angelic rebellion, God would have had to have not known the outcome but rather simply had allowed the possibility. So for some things God is all-knowing and for other things he isn't?
My argument may not be as definite concerning human destiny. The sides have been chosen before the first human was born. Thus, God's foreknowledge at this point in no way condemns the Deity as being evil. You're just running words together now while making no sense. Foreknowledge of evil prior to Adam is no different than foreknowledge of evil after Adam. If God is eternal, omniscient and all-knowing then God's foreknowledge is unchanging across all time. The question, "What did he know and when did he know it?" doesn't apply to God because He always knew all of it.
In this sense, Jesus was the 1st Adam rather than the 2nd Adam. The only point that you could argue is that humans were limited (in a broad sense) to only two choices. And in that you have an argument. You're making things up again. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: 'm asking you (in the hypothetical) to defend the fate of the victim, judging God based on the victims choices or lack thereof. Bullshit Phat, you really can't be as stupid as you insist on showing. If God is the creator of all, seen and unseen and has foreknowledge the the individual has no choice. There is no possible way to defend the actions of that God OR justify the fate of the victim. A God with foreknowledge who also is the creator is simply evil. Period. Full Stop. There can be no justification.My Website: My Website
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course. God is responsible for Lucifer.
So are you suggesting that God was responsible for Lucifer's decision to become autonomous? Phat writes:
Why is it important for them to be "given a choice"? As far as I can see, the "choice" is just your cop-out that absolves God of any responsibility.
If so, how else could future civilizations be given a choice if there was only one door through which to go? Phat writes:
You continue to make the same mistake: It isn't believers versus unbelievers. You have a lot more problems with other believers than unbelievers have with you.
And the only reason for us discussing these hypotheticals between religious and nonreligious thinking is that there are many many believers who will live in this world along with our children and the thinking processes and beliefs will continually clash. Phat writes:
The Simpsons will also impact the future. Ultimately whether or not God and Jesus are reality or myth, the effect of such beliefs will impact the future."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And if you were running the place, you wouldn't let Jesus join. After all, If Jesus had been running the place, would He let everyone join or only the Southern Baptists!"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: (Edited) What other way could the individual receive it? Why does the individual not have a choice? They are going to choose something and we humans have no idea what God knows or doesn't know about our future choices anyway. If God knew the outcome in advance then the individual could not have chosen it from free will. The answer is not that God is evil for having foreknowledge and not acting on it. The answer is that humans have a responsibility to choose wisely in the timeframe we are allowed on this earth. And if we cant freely choose our destiny (being limited to this point in time) we can at least choose our behavior and actions on a daily basis. My answer to foreknowledge vs free will is simply that we can't know. Thus it is our responsibility to believe and do. And it never hurts to ask God for help, either. If He turns out to be evil, we are screwed when we die unless there is another yet un-named victim advocate waiting in the wings of the cosmos. I have no problem with the traditional apologetic story about Jesus being eternal with GOD (aka God's human character) and sacrificing Himself as a ransom for human bondage ...which admittedly was caused by God allowing satan to rebel and have his own clubhouse. Placing God on trial takes a lot of guts. Why does everyone focus on it all being Gods responsibility rather than satans deception and tempting? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Maybe and maybe not. I would be judged accordingly. If I thought that (random street guy) Jesus was out to hustle and survive and if I sensed that my spare change could be better used elsewhere, I likely wouldn't let Jesus (aka homeless street guy) in the door. I would of course be judged accordingly. And if you were running the place, you wouldn't let Jesus join. Let me ask you this: If Jesus were running the place, would everyone have to sell all that they have in order to get in? Or is that your favorite scripture due to the fact that you were a rebel and owed back taxes? Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: You make similar assumptions that Percy made. Who are humans to define God's responsibilities, limits, and duties? In the hypothetical, there is a spiritual explanation. Do you have any idea how the spiritual world is presupposed to work? *long pause* There can be no justification. I didn't think so."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Let me ask you this: Do you read my posts at all? Because I have answered that question several times in several threads. Let me ask you this: If Jesus were running the place, would everyone have to sell all that they have in order to get in? Jesus was pretty clear: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. What must you do to be saved? Sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't mention any exceptions. The disciples believed Him. The widow with two mites believed Him. (Even the Old Testament widow who fed Elijah believed the message before He was born.) The early church believed Him. Etc. Why don't you believe Him? And why do you keep asking the same inane question when the answer will always be the same? Write it down if you can't remember it. Embroider it on a pillow."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
|
quote: Nobody is defining any of these - except that you are proposing limits. (I point out that responsibility for something happening is not A responsibility - something that should be done)
quote: Apparently the explanation is that God is a cruel child who blames his playthings. Aside from proposing limits n God that’s pretty much all you offer.
quote: However God wants it to work - if God exists and is all Christians commonly claim. Which is all we need to know for this discussion.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Phat writes: You make similar assumptions that Percy made. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 I am NOT making any assumptions. If God is the Creator of all that is, seen and unseen ... That is not an assumption it is a claim made by Christians about the God they claim to worship. If God has foreknowledge ... That is not an assumption it is a claim made by Christians about the God they claim to worship. IF those are true then if anyone ends up damned it can only be Gods fault and responsibility. The God created the human and had foreknowledge that the human would be damned. There are no assumptions in anything in this post Phat. Maybe you simply don't even know the meaning of 'assumption'. AbE: And I have a very clear understanding of how the spiritual world works. It works by making shit up and avoiding all honesty or reality or truths. Edited by jar, : see AbE:My Website: My Website
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8564 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Who are humans to define God's responsibilities, limits, and duties? His creators. He has no choice but to do exactly what humans conjured him to do, omnipotence and all. Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets go through this hypothetical slowly.
First, explain to me why God should not have foreknowledge? (Remember...according to *your* hypothetical, ALL Gods are made-up. ) So again....challenge my apologetic hypothetical....don't holler at me. Your anger and frustration speak volumes. And you cant simply attempt to reframe my argument. You are free to claim that absolute foreknowledge is evil if anyone is damned. You are free to claim that all Gods are made up. My challenge for you is twofold.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Phat writes: First, explain to me why God should not have foreknowledge? (Remember...according to *your* hypothetical, ALL Gods are made-up. ) LOL Think Phat, you might even like it. It is not me but Ignorant Christianity that makes that claim while refusing to think about the consequences.
Phat writes: Become a victim's advocate for a hypothetical human who ends up sending himself to hell (or at least ineligible for heaven) Explain why God is evil for sending satan to hell and thus setting the place up. (Potential evil vs actualized evil) There is no need or possible way anyone could be an advocate for the victim. God screwed the sucker and it is a done deal.
Phat writes: Given that some argue that humans create any and all Gods (Except perhaps GOD Himself) explain why Jesus is not necessary to accept for every man, woman, and child. Explain the loophole that allows for God to save everybody and for nobody to be damned. Keep in mind that you are defending the satan of classical apologetics. No one has claimed that everyone should be saved. Stop asserting yet more falsehoods Phat. Really try to think.My Website: My Website
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: It is a trust issue. You always seem eager to pin the bad stuff on God and ignore the presence of a fallen angel who in reality caused us to doubt and mistrust God and each other. Granted it is hypothetically more of a copout to blame satan, but putting the Creator of all seen and unseen on trial if even one of His precious little creations ends up damned seems weird to me. Satan was allowed to exist in order to test our hearts and souls. The temptation is akin to tempering us. Turning bnttle iron into solid steel. Why is it important for them to be "given a choice"? As far as I can see, the "choice" is just your cop-out that absolves God of any responsibility. God's foreknowledge is unknown and thus irrelevant to us. We do our best and hope that when we die we find that He is good."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024