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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1338 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
What exactly is the test to identify some spirit? For your spirit, the test comes from your mouth and your thinking. Or, if you want explicit data, you can make a survey to no matter how many people with a question: "Do you think you have a human spirit? (yes no). " Can you imagine the result of this survey?
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1338 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
If we define a unicorn in the usual way, four legs, tail, mane, horn, etc, you can think about it, know what it is, and decide whether there is such a thing. But if you add another property, "existence", then things get more interesting. A unicorn is something that exists, has four legs, tail, mane, horn, etc. Does it exist? Yes, of course, by definition! Very good first step.So, by definition, the unicorn exists. Then what? Define something is only the first step. The meaningful thing is what is the use of that definition. By defining a god, a theology can be constructed. What does the unicorn-ology say AFTER you define the unicorn?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
juv writes: It does not matter how did you feel in a church. The key is you DO feel some differences. THAT, is the evidence. LOL It is evidence that you feel something but is not evidence that it is not just a bad burrito. It is most certainly not evidence of any spirit or god or miracle or anything other than feeling something. Sheesh!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
juv writes: Or, if you want explicit data, you can make a survey to no matter how many people with a question: "Do you think you have a human spirit? (yes no). " Can you imagine the result of this survey? Again, you really are totally clueless of what the word "evidence" means. Are you willfully trying to be dumber that the red brick? The survey would be evidence of absolutely NOTHING but the results of the survey. It is NOT and can never be evidence of "spirit". Basics. If you want to stop coming off like that red brick then learn some basics.
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1338 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
It is evidence that you feel something but is not evidence that it is not just a bad burrito. It is most certainly not evidence of any spirit or god or miracle or anything other than feeling something. Is the difference feeling in mood of a gathering caused by anything physical? if not, what caused the difference?
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1338 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
The survey would be evidence of absolutely NOTHING but the results of the survey. So, what kind of thing you expect to see which you would take it as an evidence? If you can not specify it, then you do not know what you are asking for.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
juv writes: Is the difference feeling in mood of a gathering caused by anything physical? if not, what caused the difference? Yup, it's caused by chemistry and indoctrination. No spirit involved other than the oft chose alcohol or illicit drugs. And it is still not evidence of anything other than the fact that people feel something.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
juv writes: So, what kind of thing you expect to see which you would take it as an evidence? I see no evidence it would be possible to ever see any evidence for anything other than purely natural events. It is impossible for there to be evidence of anything supernatural. Period. There can be unexplained things but even unexplained and unexplainable events are not evidence of anything but that they happened. But the topic of course is free will and omniscience and the ONLY possible conclusion is trying to market an omniscient god that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen but that also condemns people to hell is that that god is simply evil and unworthy of respect or worship. Of course, since the Bible is filled with contradictions it's also very easy to show that such a god is demonstrably evil. The Bible also says that God is NOT omniscient but most Biblical Christians never actually read the Bible and so are unaware of that or more likely, just pretend it doesn't say what is actually written.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Stop saying you "would argue" when all you ever do is assert. And stop using the No True Christian PRATT.
If the answer was ever truly in your head and your heart and the answer was Jesus Christ, I would argue that you cant really outgrow Him as easily as you would a Santa Claus myth, spaghetti monster mythos, or any other fool thing that humans believe. Phat writes:
Again, that's not an argument. It's pretty clear you don't have one.
Unless you finally concluded that human wisdom made God rather than the other way around. In which case I argue that you are WRONG. Phat writes:
Yes they are. Science shows us that your version of spiritual belief is no different from the thousands of other versions of spiritual belief.
Science and its method are great for telling us facts about material reality but are no better than spiritual belief and experience at defining and/or disproving God. Phat writes:
Stop lying about me. You simply chose to no longer believe..."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I was about 14 and I'd never heard of evolution or the scientific method. Just accept it, I believed exactly like you, then I didn't. Don't try to spin it, it's a fact. Did you ever see unexplained behavior,voices coming out of people that sounded nothing like them, bodies convulsing on the floor, and after the "excorcism, radiant peace and healing tears? Did you ever hear several voices at once come out of someone that no human could imitate such a sound? Did you have your hair stand on end? Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained? That's a fact for me"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: No, you are correct. All that I have are my experiences. Experiences that you likely never had. Like you, I saw many "Christians" behaving as bad or worse than secular folks in the local bar---even after they were drunk. I had many reasons I could have used to leave the faith. Whats the difference between you and I? Again, that's not an argument. It's pretty clear you don't have one."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I agree that there never will be objective evidence of the supernatural (although unexplained can sometimes later be explained) It is impossible for there to be evidence of anything supernatural. Period. There can be unexplained things but even unexplained and unexplainable events are not evidence of anything but that they happened. But the topic of course is free will and omniscience and the ONLY possible conclusion is trying to market an omniscient god that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen but that also condemns people to hell is that that god is simply evil and unworthy of respect or worship.I also see the argument you are attempting to make about an all-knowing God, but what type of God are you trying to say would better explain things? Oner who did noty foreknow anything? One who allowed humans to become the decisions that they made and either knew them or "never knew" them? The latter explanation works for me....I cannot imagine a God with limited power, but I can imagine a God Who allows humans to choose their destiny to an extent. Foreknowledge is an UN-necessary characteristic. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: Did you ever see unexplained behavior,voices coming out of people that sounded nothing like them, bodies convulsing on the floor, and after the "excorcism, radiant peace and healing tears? Did you ever hear several voices at once come out of someone that no human could imitate such a sound? Did you have your hair stand on end? Did you realize that at worst, you were definitely experiencing something unexplained? That's a fact for me I've seen many of those but only in a mental hospital where they belong. If those things happened in the church I attended my parents would have had the sense not to take me there - it would be child abuse. No wonder you're so fucked up. If that's what you think belief in Jesus is, you're as crazy as they are. I believed as deeply as anyone could without the hysterical pantomime, accept it and stop projecting. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
tangle writes: Demonic manifestations happen in mental hospitals also. No, I cannot prove it to the satisfaction of science, but such manifestation has been reported by many sane people. The fact that *you* think its daft does not make it so.
I've seen many of those but only in a mental hospital where they belong.Tangle writes: I could see how reasonable parents would protect their children from such knowledge...but the parents themselves would do better to face the unknown reality which scientific evidence cannot prove or disprove since there is no way to objectivly measure such activity. If those things happened in the church I attended my parents would have had the sense not to take me there - it would be child abuse. I believe though cannot prove that this stuff is real. I also realize and will readily admit that 80% of it is either sensationalism(to drum up business) or is counterfeit manifestations from the occult side of the spirit world in order to discredit the power of God (Creator of all seen and unseen...Jesus Father) and finally I know that I will never convince you. If I tell you that religion is *not* going to quietly go away as the world turns to its new "god" of science, you will tell me that I am clinging to a fantasy. So if we ever do go fishing I suggest we steer clear of talking about religion and beliefs. I am not a loon worthy of a mental hospital (as best as I can determine) but I do respect science, psychology, and psychiatry for what these disciplines of human knowledge can give us. You, on the other hand, dismiss anything that cannot be pinned down by evidence or that can be (in your opinion) better explained through natural means. Hey...I dont blame you for believing as you do. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: All that science shows us is that people can and do believe anything. I happen to believe that all of the beliefs are beliefs in philosophical concepts and/or wannabe gods. You and Tangle will tell me that I am sticking to exclusivity in the belief that I was culturally raised in. Its a good argument--I certainly cant prove otherwise to you. You also will argue that you guys simply believe in one less God than I do....and lump beliefs in general into a relativistic camp. Science shows us that your version of spiritual belief is no different from the thousands of other versions of spiritual belief. You will defend your positions by claiming that you were believers just as much as I am now. I highly doubt it though cannot prove it. Some arguments I just cant win. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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