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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: In one sense, "well duh". God created all things seen and unseen and is thus responsible for everything. My answer is so what? You still owe Him a choice.
If God is omnipotent and/or omniscient, yes, He is responsible for everything. That has been answered for you time and time again in this thread. Just look at the hoops you have to jump through just to express your idiotic theology. I beg your pardon? You are the one who thinks you can label Him fiction, live your life your own darn way like the old hippie you are, die without believing He exists, and then at the same time telling us that our God is wrong and that your God would accept you home without casting any of those stubborn little sixties ideological kum ba yah demons of all inclusiveness and everybody is welcome home at the Fictitious Fathers house as they are....no strings attached. You despise exclusivity. I despise inclusivity. I am the older son bitching at Dad for letting your deadbeat self back in the house and killing the fatted calf that I wanted for my entitlement meal. Sheeesh. You still owe Dad a choice. Are you gonna stay independent from His will or are you gonna shape up and swallow your leftist ideological pride? I am reminded of some of these homeless people who think that we all owe them a meal. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Juvenissun Member (Idle past 1338 days) Posts: 332 Joined: |
Christian God is all powerful by definition.
An all powerful God does not mean He wants to know or to control your every choices.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Stile writes: You mentioned killing a baby isn't like taking out the trash - implying that one is easy and one is not Both are technically easily accomplished.
and further implying that a "not-easy one" is also impossible. That's your interpretation not mine. My claim is that, for instance, you are incapable of killing a baby just because you feel like it today. If that is the case, you need to explain how you think you have free will.
Killing a baby is not impossible because it's "morally difficult" to choose. It's simply that - morally difficult to choose. Such difficult adds in a consequence of extreme bad feelings and regret. Some will be capable of handling these, some will not. For some, like psychopaths, it's very easy to "handle these" because they don't have to handle them - they do not feel the bad feelings or regret. But, again, this doesn't make it impossible for a non-psychopath to choose the morally difficult decision - and then deal with the very bad feelings and regret. This is not about after the fact regret, I'm saying that you can't actually do it can you? It's not 'morally difficult to choose', you can not do it (without qualifiers). Or can you? This is not an academic question, it's a practical, pragmatic one.
Ha ha - you may as well say that the Bible being the most popular best selling book proves that God exists. Bollox.
We also don't have infinite empathy. We have finite empathy. Different for different people. So our freedom to act varies by individual. Which is exactly what I say. Our free will is bounded and only the psychopath are able to operate entirely freely - if they so wish. The clever ones don't of course, because there are social consequences. Empathy constrains our freedom to do evil.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why?
My answer is so what? You still owe Him a choice. Phat writes:
Yes. There is nothing inconsistent or complex about that. It's what Jesus said. You're the one who has to jump through hoops, as I said, to make that simple message into your evil theology.
You are the one who thinks you can label Him fiction, live your life your own darn way like the old hippie you are, die without believing He exists, and then at the same time telling us that our God is wrong and that your God would accept you home without casting any of those stubborn little sixties ideological kum ba yah demons of all inclusiveness and everybody is welcome home at the Fictitious Fathers house as they are....no strings attached. Phat writes:
So does God. See the story of the prodigal son.
You despise exclusivity. Phat writes:
Yes, it's clear that you despise the message.
I despise inclusivity. Phat writes:
Why?
You still owe Dad a choice. Phat writes:
I'm not an ideologue.
Are you gonna stay independent from His will or are you gonna shape up and swallow your leftist ideological pride? Phat writes:
We do. We're all our brothers' keeper. We're all responsible for the well-being of the least of these. I am reminded of some of these homeless people who think that we all owe them a meal."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Phat writes:
My answer is so what? You still owe Him a choice.Why? Because He is more than a fictitious character in a book. The fact that you can't see this or grasp the implication is one big reason why you have no business using the words of the book to support your evil theology. (see what I did there? Now I must defend the idea that much of Leftist Philosophy is noble on the surface yet evil in practice)
There is nothing inconsistent or complex about that. It's what Jesus said. You're the one who has to jump through hoops, as I said, to make that simple message into your evil theology. Oh so *my* Theology is evil because it is exclusivist, right?: But its what Jesus said. John 14:5-7 writes: Now granted you can make a case that simply doing the message will in fact allow for anyone to "know Jesus" and thus know God. Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." In fact, it would be nice if you did so, rather than continually braying on about how God does not exist, how the Holy Spirit does not exist and how Jesus was nothing more than an Elmer Gantry message boy sent to give the socialists a useful message for a humanist society.
Phat writes:
You despise exclusivity.ringo writes: Picking and choosing which stories support your Leftist interpretation of the "message" will not work when you consider the characters as limited to the book, fictitious, and that the message alone has value. The message and the messenger are inseparable, and in researching scriptures with which to argue aginst your inclusivity I found that you are right about some things. I think you are wrong about the characters being limited to the book, the message having value while Jesus becomes nothing more than a human envelope, and the stories being logical yet fictitious. I know you, though. You will fire this one back at me:
So does God. See the story of the prodigal son.Matthew 7:21-23 writes: Thus in trying to defend exclusivity I am finding scripture that supports inclusiveness. So you are right in that the issue is not black and white. Its both inclusive and exclusive.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will go into the holy nation of heaven. The one who does the things My Father in heaven wants him to do will go into the holy nation of heaven. Many people will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not preach in Your Name? Did we not put out demons in Your Name? Did we not do many powerful works in Your Name?’ Then I will say to them in plain words, ‘I never knew you. Go away from Me, you who do wrong!’ringo writes: God has a way of doing this to me sometimes. Here I go and try to find scripture that supports exclusivity and He points me towards scripture that supports inclusivity. Go figure. We're all our brothers' keeper. We're all responsible for the well-being of the least of these.Scriptures that support exclusivity: 1. Matthew 7:13-14-- Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. 2. Luke 13:23-25-- Someone asked him, Lord, are only a few people going to be saved? He said to them. Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 3. Isaiah 35:8 And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's not an answer.
Because He is more than a fictitious character in a book. Phat writes:
On the contrary, the book supports what I say and condemns what you say. That's how we can tell that your reading of the book is wrong.
The fact that you can't see this or grasp the implication is one big reason why you have no business using the words of the book to support your evil theology. Phat writes:
Yes. You went back in time to when you were five years old by saying, "I know you are but what am I?"
see what I did there? Phat writes:
It's Jesus' philosophy that you're calling evil.
Now I must defend the idea that much of Leftist Philosophy is noble on the surface yet evil in practice Phat writes:
Yes.
Oh so *my* Theology is evil because it is exclusivist, right? Phat writes:
I have done, which is why you admit the case can be made.
Now granted you can make a case that simply doing the message will in fact allow for anyone to "know Jesus" and thus know God.In fact, it would be nice if you did so... Phat writes:
Well, I shouldn't have to continually repeat the obvious truth to you but you continually deny, deny, deny without making a case FOR your evil theology.
... rather than continually braying on about how God does not exist, how the Holy Spirit does not exist and how Jesus was nothing more than an Elmer Gantry message boy sent to give the socialists a useful message for a humanist society. Phat writes:
There's no picking and choosing involved. If you can support another reading of the message, do it.
Picking and choosing which stories support your Leftist interpretation of the "message"... Phat writes:
You need to learn that fiction has value. We can learn from fiction - but not if we confuse it with reality.
... will not work when you consider the characters as limited to the book, fictitious, and that the message alone has value. Phat writes:
Nope. Still false, no matter how often you repeat it. And you know it - you don't throw your mail away and keep the envelopes.
The message and the messenger are inseparable... Phat writes:
So why are you still so arrogant in claiming that I'm wrong about everything (and "evil" to boot)?
... and in researching scriptures with which to argue aginst your inclusivity I found that you are right about some things. Phat writes:
Of course you are - because that's what it says.
Thus in trying to defend exclusivity I am finding scripture that supports inclusiveness. Phat writes:
No, I have not recognized any exclusivity.
So you are right in that the issue is not black and white. Its both inclusive and exclusive. Phat writes:
None of your quotes support exclusivity. Scriptures that support exclusivity: The "broad road that leadeth to destruction" is the "mainstream" theology that you keep touting. It's the theology of the Pharisees. Note that when Jesus was asked if only a few would get to heaven, He didn't say yes. He told people to choose the hard way, the way of blood, sweat, toil and tears. If anybody is to be excluded, it's the exclusvists."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
But suppose the super-smart being makes the prediction before the events happen? Suppose, a billion years ago, before any recording was made of any actions of any humans, the super-smart being could look at the trajectory of every atom in the universe and predict what was going to happen?
If the super-smart being could do this before the evolution of humans, then how could it be said the humans had free will and were not just following a mechanical trajectory like the planets in their orbits?
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
To such a deity the universe is nothing but a clockwork, atoms moving in precisely defined trajectories. There is no more "free will" for humans, who are collections of atoms, than there is for the planets following their orbits.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Scripture actually supports your hypothetical position somewhat, though the overall process is more than simply mechanical.
Acts 17:24-28 NIV writes: 24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' Whether or not He knows the trajectory your life will take, perhaps the issue is whether or not you accept your destiny. Edited by Phat, : spelling"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Sarah Bellum Member (Idle past 626 days) Posts: 826 Joined: |
Perhaps.
But it seems illogical that the choice of a human (whatever it means to "accept" one's destiny) would affect the knowledge of a deity.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
deleted
Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I see your logic, and apart from the scriptural understanding that I have regarding the character of such a Deity I too am clueless what A Creator of all seen and unseen would think.
Perhaps one key is that even if we cannot deny that God foreknows all things (a trait which makes Him evil according to some arguments) we must admit that we ourselves do not know our destiny. One may argue that it matters not what we do since we are pre-programmed robots anyway, but I would argue that we can at least imagine that we can determine our destiny and attempt to do so with all honesty and passion. Lets re-examine jar and ringos favorite scripture:
Matt 25:31-26:1 writes:
1) God knows who the sheep are and who the goats are. They themselves do not know to which group they belong. 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."2) God informs them that they are sheep (or goats) because they did what they did. Thus, even if He foreknew their destiny, they chose their destiny based on what they did in this life. One cannot say that they didn't know what to do. We become the decisions we make. We are not mindless zombies living out a pre-planned script. We ourselves are writing the script as we live day by day. Whether God sees the finished script before we write it out in time, we are still the ones doing the choosing. Note how he says to the sheep, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. Does that mean that the sheep were foreknown to be sheep without the responsibility of their choosing their actions? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.- Dr.John Lennox The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killo The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him. Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You(1894).
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat, you still refuse to even consider what you post and so post stuff that is simply silly.
Phat writes: 2) God informs them that they are sheep (or goats) because they did what they did. Thus, even if He foreknew their destiny, they chose their destiny based on what they did in this life. The reason the god you and the Apologists market and worship is so evil and despicable and vile and unworthy of anything but scorn is not what the individuals do or don't do, it is what you say your god did. Is the god you worship and market the creator of all that is, seen and unseen? Does your god have foreknowledge? Stop dancing and playing the Apologist palm the pea con. Is the god you worship and market the creator of all that is, seen and unseen? Does your god have foreknowledge? Edited by jar, : deplorable ----> despicable just to keep the Word Nazi happy.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The God I believe in is not one whom I "market." The God I believe in is the God over your mind as well as mine.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.- Criss Jami, Killosophy
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So once again you simply tap dance, palm the pea, try to con the rubes.
Is the god you worship and market the creator of all that is, seen and unseen? Does your god have foreknowledge?
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