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Author | Topic: Creation | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.6
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But a plane is not a flying vehicle. from your same link: planeNOUN An aeroplane. words can have multiple meanings dummy.It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Tangle
Tangle writes: It's a hypothesis but never mind, it's irrelevant to the point being made. Why do you classify the Big Bang Theory as a hypothesis? Is that because it is a TV show?
Tangle writes: (And a theory is stronger than fact, because it is an explanation of facts; but that is also irrelevant.) How can a theory which can be disproven be stronger than a fact that never changes?
Tangle writes: It's what science does, creates hypothesise about things that are not known yet. What would you base such a hypothesis on? The only thing you would have is to make the assumption it was true then try to prove your assumption was true. But you can not base evidence of something you believe to be true. That is faith and faith is not allowed in science or so I have been told many times on this site.
Tangle writes: That's why it's a hypothesis. A hypotheis supported by validated mathematics. You can take numbers and make them say anything you want them to say. If you don't believe that check out Einstein's biggest blunder. As long as the math is all that supports the hypothesis it will remain a hypothesis. It will never become a theory until there is evidence to support it.
Tangle writes: Why should I care what you believe? Show your workings. quote: Now if you can tell me when the beginning was I will give you a definite time. But until then I will just say "the universe has always existed in some form." Actually that is not far from what several scientist believe. Einstein believed it was eternal in existence until he was hoodwinked by Hubble.
Tangle writes: So just what is your problem? You agree that there are scientists that hypothesise that the universe existed before the big bang.So you now agree that you're wrong. No I am not wrong. Just because there are scientist that don't believe in the Big Bang Theory and have tried to come up with something else does not make me wrong. They have zero evidence for anything they have dreamed up, imagined, or devised as to how the creation took place. At least I have a Book I have come to believe that is true due to the things foretold thousands of years before they took place. Even scientific things foretold long before man discovered the facts about certain things.
Tangle writes: Why should I care what you believe? Show your workings. Exodus 3:14
quote: God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Dr.
Dr writes: planeNOUN An aeroplane. words can have multiple meanings dummy. If you had been honest you would have included the following.
quote: Well 200 years before the airplane was invented in 1903 it meant: "A flat surface on which a straight line joining any two points on it would wholly lie."
quote: quote: quote: So yes old words can be co-opted and used as slang by people to lazy to use the complete word when talking about an object. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
So yes old words can be co-opted and used as slang by people to lazy to use the complete word when talking about an object.
great so you agree that words can have multiple meanings depending on their context. So why are you arguing with ringo about science's use of "assumption"?It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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ICANT writes: How can a theory which can be disproven be stronger than a fact that never changes? Because a theory explains the facts and forms a conclusion. Which can change if new facts are found. But this is irrelevant.
As long as the math is all that supports the hypothesis it will remain a hypothesis. It will never become a theory until there is evidence to support it. Correct but irrelevant
Now if you can tell me when the beginning was I will give you a definite time. But until then I will just say "the universe has always existed in some form." You don't seem to be able to understand that my point is that there are scientifically valid hypothesises that DO say that the the universe has existed forever.
Just because there are scientist that don't believe in the Big Bang Theory and have tried to come up with something else does not make me wrong. As far as this argument goes, yes it does. You said this way back in post 1285:
ICANT writes: Scientist believe the universe began to exist. Because it exists today. According to General relativity it could not have existed eternally in the past. And I showed you a mathematically validated hypothesis by scientists that shows that it coud be.
Exodus 3:14 You blather on about difficult physics that you don't understand and it not being enough to form a theory then quote a chunk of ancient mythology as though that was enough? Really?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
According to John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time...." Either Moses was wrong or John was wrong. God the Father is in heaven and has been seen only by Moses. There is no such thing as a "spiritual manifestation" and your god doesn't exist either. Whether you believe in Him or not does not make any difference.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo, to ICANT writes: You have no place to make absolute statements which you cannot prove. Perhaps it makes no difference what we believe in the grand scheme of things. I have experienced spiritual manifestations, so it means your definition has to be different for your statement to be true. Evidence does not define reality. Your absolute belief in such a definition is quite simply WRONG...at least for many of us. If your name was ringo Webster, you would have to rewrite your dictionary. There is no such thing as a "spiritual manifestation" and your god doesn't exist either. Whether you believe in Him or not does not make any difference.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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ICANT writes:
At 10 billion degrees K it would be well beyond the visible spectrum.
I thought it took energy to produce light.Light is photons and electromagnetic waves. At 10 billion degrees K the soup that existed one billionth of a second after T=0 would have been pure energy. Pure energy would produce bright light. ICANT writes:
It wasn't.
If the entire universe was bathed in this bright light... ICANT writes:
Even ultraviolet light, which is just barely beyond the visible spectrum, is dark - because, guess why - it's beyond the visible spectrum.
... where would darkness come from? ICANT writes:
On the contrary, everything was dark until it cooled down enough to be visible.
But darkness did not exist in the beginning. ICANT writes:
Who said there was objective evidence for that?
Do you mean objective evidence like the objective evidence for the universe not existing at T=0 and yet existing 1 billionth of a second later? Two branes colliding and creating the universe. An instanton beginning to exist and producing the present universe.
ICANT writes:
The difference is that the Big Bang is the best explanation for the objective evidence that we do have. God is not.
There is no objective evidence for any of those, making them equal in objective evidence for their existence. ICANT writes:
You're being dishonest. I bet you have used the word yourself exactly in that context.
But a plane is not a flying vehicle. ICANT writes:
If you were honestly looking for answers, you could have googled that yourself. For example:
Where do you find that definition of assumption?quote: ICANT writes:
That's why the Big Bang is still a hypothesis. It is not (yet) a thoroughly tested theory, like evolution or the age of the earth, until the assumptions can be confirmed.
It is assumed the universe existed 1 billionth of a second after T=0.what fact is that assumption based on. You said they are all based on fact. ICANT writes:
Dictionary definitions are the first layer of understanding, not the last. Argumentum ad dictionarium is a fallacy used by schoolboys. Adults should have grown out of it. Here are some dictionary definitions of assumption.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You do it all the time under the umbrella of belief. Why is it different when I do it?
You have no place to make absolute statements which you cannot prove. Phat writes:
No you haven't. You have experienced "something" that you interpret as "spiritual manifestations" - most likely because some pastor has told you that's what it was.
I have experienced spiritual manifestations.... Phat writes:
You have it backwards. YOU can define "spiritual manifestation" in such a way as to make your interpretation true. But different people will define it in different ways: ghosts, demons, gods, etc.
... so it means your definition has to be different for your statement to be true. Phat writes:
How can a belief be "wrong", unless it actually defies objective evidence? My belief is just as valid as yours - AND it's supported by a complete lack of evidence for yours. Your absolute belief in such a definition is quite simply WRONG...And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi Tangle
Tangle writes: You don't seem to be able to understand that my point is that there are scientifically valid hypothesises that DO say that the the universe has existed forever. Can you explain one of the hypothesis that is valid?Then give me the evidence that makes it valid. Using the scientific definition of validity found here quote: Bloodletting was practiced until the 20th century, as a cure for diseases. George Washington was bled to death by doctors practicing the accepted cure for diseases. Today we know that the life of the flesh is in the blood as the red blood cells carry oxygen and energy to the body cells and then transport the cell waste to the liver and kidneys. Thus we know that the life of the flesh is in the blood. This was not fully understood until the 1900's. But Moses made that statement over 2800 years ago, in my book you call a book of mythology. How did a shepherd 2800 years ago have that information and write it down for us to have today.
quote: If the Bible is a book of myth how would it be able to record information 2800 years before it was discovered? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi ringo
ringo writes: Whether you believe in Him or not does not make any difference. My God does exist "Whether you believe in Him or not does not make any difference." One day you will meet Him face to face and give an account of your life and make your excuses for not believing in Him. You will believe then but it will be too late. I pray God bless you anyway and open you eyes that you might see before it is too late,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
That statement has no value. You could say the same thing about the Tooth Fairy.
My God does exist "Whether you believe in Him or not does not make any difference." ICANT writes:
If there was a god, he would be more likely to judge you on your behaviour than on someting as petty as belief. One day you will meet Him face to face and give an account of your life and make your excuses for not believing in Him.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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ICANT writes: Can you explain one of the hypothesis that is valid? Of course I can't ICANT, but if I could you wouldn't understand it. Luckily I don't have to because it's a published peer reviewed paper. (Which means that those who do understand have checked for both of us.). But you know, you could always check for yourself
quote: But after that it gets a bit trickier. https://www.sciencedirect.com/...ticle/pii/S0370269314009381
Then give me the evidence that makes it valid. Using the scientific definition of validity found here That made me laugh out loud.
If the Bible is a book of myth how would it be able to record information 2800 years before it was discovered? This is just a wild guess but I'd say they knew that blood was necessary for life because every time they cut a goat's throat it died.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Hi ringo
ringo writes: At 10 billion degrees K it would be well beyond the visible spectrum. Are you saying the Big Bang Theory is wrong and we cannot see the cmbr?
ringo writes: It wasn't. Why does the cmbr exist then?
ringo writes: On the contrary, everything was dark until it cooled down enough to be visible. You know that because?
ringo writes: Who said there was objective evidence for that? You said, "There is no objective evidence that God exists." I was just asking did you require the same kind of objective evidence that was available for those events for the existence of God.
ICANT writes: Message 1335 Do you mean objective evidence like the objective evidence for the universe not existing at T=0 and yet existing 1 billionth of a second later?Two branes colliding and creating the universe. An instanton beginning to exist and producing the present universe. There is no objective evidence for any of those, making them equal in objective evidence for their existence. But you seem to require more evidence for God than those events.
ringo writes: The difference is that the Big Bang is the best explanation for the objective evidence that we do have. God is not. But you just said above there was no objective evidence supporting the Big Bang. Make up your mind.
ringo writes: You're being dishonest. I bet you have used the word yourself exactly in that context. Never since I read about the Wright brothers was the first to build an airplane.
ringo writes: If you were honestly looking for answers, you could have googled that yourself. For example: But you are not arguing that assumption have to be proven but that they are fact. Unless I misunderstood what you were saying.
ringo writes: That's why the Big Bang is still a hypothesis. Where can I find that the Big Bang is a hypothesis rather than the Standard Theory?
ringo writes:
Dictionary definitions are the first layer of understanding, If dictionaries do not give us the definitions of words why do we have dictionaries? Can anybody make up any kind of definition that suites their belief system? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I'm saying that Genesis talks about visible light - i.e. the difference between day and night. The authors of Genesis could not "see" the cmbr and had no way of knowing that it existed.
Are you saying the Big Bang Theory is wrong and we cannot see the cmbr? ICANT writes:
The difference is that we are actively looking for objective evidence, so yes, we do require objective evidence and we don't call something a theory until there is objective evidence to support it. Believers, on the other hand, just make excuses for not having any objective evidence for their beliefs.
You said, "There is no objective evidence that God exists." I was just asking did you require the same kind of objective evidence that was available for those events for the existence of God. ICANT writes:
No. As I said, those events are not considered as fact until they are supported by evidence.
But you seem to require more evidence for God than those events. ICANT writes:
No. The Big Bang is the best EXPLANATION for the evidence that we do have. Of course we have evidence for the Big Bang - the cmbr for example.
But you just said above there was no objective evidence supporting the Big Bang. ICANT writes:
No, I'm not. I'm arguing that assumptions are tested and shown to be valid.
But you are not arguing that assumption have to be proven but that they are fact. ICANT writes:
Google.
Where can I find that the Big Bang is a hypothesis rather than the Standard Theory? ICANT writes:
As I said, it's the first layer of understanding. People like you, who regard the dictionary as the be-all and end-all repository of knowlege, never get beyond the first layer.
If dictionaries do not give us the definitions of words why do we have dictionaries? ICANT writes:
Of course not. But people working in specialized areas can fine-tune definitions to fit their needs.
Can anybody make up any kind of definition that suites their belief system?quote:Be sure not to use yours for anything else. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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