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Author | Topic: Creation | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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Because the best explanations work well.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
"Search for the truth" is too broad.
If science is not a search for the truth then what is it?1. A "search" can use any means, such as prayer, meditation, etc. Science uses a specific method. 2. A "search" often implies a process that ends when the destination is reached. Science is an ongoing process with no ultimate destination. 3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Pressie and these guys are rather flippant towards you! Granted you don't get much respect here. I think that what he means, however, is that science is a tool used to determine certain truths relative to known scientific principles.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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ringo writes: One could argue that our personal belief could also be improved/amended. Even if I believed something for fifty years does not mean that I cannot be taught something new. Perhaps at one time, I thought God was fiction. Perhaps tomorrow I may find out diffferent. Who knows? 1. A "search" can use any means, such as prayer, meditation, etc. Science uses a specific method.2. A "search" often implies a process that ends when the destination is reached. Science is an ongoing process with no ultimate destination. 3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo
ringo writes: "Search for the truth" is too broad. Why is a search for the truth too broad? I thought truth was all that really mattered. Anything else is only part truth or a lie. But if it is not the truth it is false regardless of how much truth is scattered in it.
ringo writes: 3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. What science finds can always be improved/amended. Truth is an absolute. Science is supposed to be a system of study of an organized body of knowledge on a particular subject conducted to find the truth of that particular subject. It is a scientific fact that the universe exists. That is an absolute truth. How that universe came about existing is a bunch of disorganized and unknown knowledge. In which there are many discrepancies of what is true and what is false. However this knowledge gets arranged can be changes just as fast as the wind changes directions.But the fact the universe exists can not be changed. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Pressie
Pressie writes: Because the best explanations work well. Before redshift was discovered everyone believed the universe had existed eternally. Because it was the best explanation for the observations. It is still the best explanation for many of the observations the BBT is in disagreement with. Yet many believe the BBT is the best explanation today. The best explanation can be totally wrong. Or partially wrong. True facts is never wrong they are 100% correct all the time. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If the amendment is based on fact, the belief is no longer a belief. If it is not based on fact, it's just another belief; one is as good as another. One could argue that our personal belief could also be improved/amended.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
I explained it. Read my post.
Why is a search for the truth too broad? ICANT writes:
In science, truth is not the goal. If something is "true" - i.e. if it is supported by evidence - it can be used for further study. For example, it is true that radioactive decay rates do not change; that truth can be used as an "assumption" to accurately measure ages.
I thought truth was all that really mattered. ICANT writes:
No. That is not how science looks at truth at all. You can have a few untruths here and there without the whole edifice falling down - just like you can take a couple of studs out of a wall to put in a door without the whole house coming down.
But if it is not the truth it is false regardless of how much truth is scattered in it. ICANT writes:
No it isn't. Truth is an absolute.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So are you saying that the goal is simply further study? How is that different than attempting to find the truth? In science, truth is not the goal. If something is "true" - i.e. if it is supported by evidence - it can be used for further study. For example, it is true that radioactive decay rates do not change; that truth can be used as an "assumption" to accurately measure ages.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo
ringo writes: I explained it. Read my post. In Message 1367 you said:
quote: #1 What difference does the method make? You believe that truth can not be found in prayer and meditation so anything found would be untrue. So what? #2 A search for the truth ends when the truth is reached. From what I gather science never finds the truth according to you.
ringo writes: In science, truth is not the goal. If something is "true" - i.e. if it is supported by evidence Is something is true it is a fact, and facts don't change.
ringo writes: that truth can be used as an "assumption" That truth is a fact that can not be changed it is not an assumption. Facts in science can not change only the assumptions that scientist make can be changed.
ringo writes: For example, it is true that radioactive decay rates do not change; that truth can be used as an "assumption" to accurately measure ages. I think you are making an assumption that radioactive decay rates do not change. They do change with the rotation of the sun.
ringo writes: No. That is not how science looks at truth at all. You can have a few untruths here and there without the whole edifice falling down How many parts of the Big Bang Theory has to be wrong before scientist will agree it is not the best explanation for the observations? cavediver, Son Goku, and Sir Roger Penrose already agree we need a new theory.
ringo writes: ICANT writes:
No it isn't. Truth is an absolute. From Message 1367 3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. Either truth is absolute or it is not it can not be both. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There is no such thing as "the truth". Religion thinks there is - and thousands of different sects all think that they have found it, so they stop looking. That's the opposite of science. So are you saying that the goal is simply further study? How is that different than attempting to find the truth?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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ICANT writes:
No. Anything found through prayer and meditation is unreliable unless it can be verified objectively. We know that because "truths" found through prayer and meditation vary widely among different groups of believers.
You believe that truth can not be found in prayer and meditation so anything found would be untrue. ICANT writes:
How can you know when "the truth" has been reached?
#2 A search for the truth ends when the truth is reached. ICANT writes:
Our understanding of facts can change. At one time, Newtonian physics was considered to be "the truth" but now we know it isn't the whole truth. It would be foolish to pretend that what we know about physics today is the whole truth.
Is something is true it is a fact, and facts don't change. ICANT writes:
As I have said, an "assumption" in science is a fact that has been verified in another context. The example I gave was radioactive decay. We do not have to verify it as fact every single time we measure the age of a rock or a bone because it has been verified as fact multiple dimes in different contexts.
That truth is a fact that can not be changed it is not an assumption. Facts in science can not change only the assumptions that scientist make can be changed. ICANT writes:
It doesn't matter how many parts are "wrong". As long as it's the best explanation, it's the best explanation.
How many parts of the Big Bang Theory has to be wrong before scientist will agree it is not the best explanation for the observations? ICANT writes:
You're misrepresenting what I said. Here's the whole quote:
From Message 1367 3. "The truth" can be seen as an absolute. Either truth is absolute or it is not it can not be both.quote:Science doesn't search for absolute truth because it isn't possible to know when we've found it. And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo
ringo writes: No. Anything found through prayer and meditation is unreliable unless it can be verified objectively. We know that because "truths" found through prayer and meditation vary widely among different groups of believers. How do you know whether anything can or can not happen because of prayer? But you are correct truth is not found through prayer unless you are looking for spiritual truth.
ringo writes:
How can you know when "the truth" has been reached? When you have facts that supports the theory. Until you have the facts you have nothing but belief.
ringo writes: Our understanding of facts can change. At one time, Newtonian physics was considered to be "the truth" but now we know it isn't the whole truth. It would be foolish to pretend that what we know about physics today is the whole truth. Facts do not change ever. What you believe to be true is what changes not the facts. Only what you believe to be facts. It is your understanding that is flawed, not the facts. Do you even know what a fact is? A fact is a thing that is indisputably true. The universe exists.The earth exists. The computer I am using to transfer this post exists. The keyboard I am typing on exists. And the list goes on and on. ringo writes: It doesn't matter how many parts are "wrong". As long as it's the best explanation, it's the best explanation. If it is not true it is not the best explanation. It may be the best science can come up with but that does not make it a fact. It remains a hypothesis something that is accepted by faith.
ringo writes: Science doesn't search for absolute truth because it isn't possible to know when we've found it. Are you telling me that it is not a fact that the universe exists? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
Objective evidence. Apologists have all kinds of excuses for why it doesn't work.
How do you know whether anything can or can not happen because of prayer? ICANT writes:
But you claimed that there is such a thing as absolute truth. To reach absolute truth, you'd need to have ALL of the facts, not just some facts. How can you know when you have all of the facts?
ringo writes:
When you have facts that supports the theory. How can you know when "the truth" has been reached? ICANT writes:
For all intents and purposes, facts ARE what is believed to be true at any given time. We can not be sure that a "fact" will never change.
Facts do not change ever. What you believe to be true is what changes not the facts. ICANT writes:
Nothing is indisputable.
A fact is a thing that is indisputably true. ICANT writes:
The best explanation IS the best explanation. It may well turn out to not be "true" - Newtonian physics, for example.
If it is not true it is not the best explanation. ICANT writes:
Again, you should read what I write instead of just making it up in your head. I said, "Science doesn't search for absolute truth because it isn't possible to know when we've found it." How can you determine when "absolute truth" has been found? Are you telling me that it is not a fact that the universe exists?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo, to ICANT writes: Of course, you can't know. You can believe that all of the facts exist, even though you do not yet know them. And who says we have to "reach" absolute truth? Perhaps absolute truth reaches us. Of course, as I have said before, you may stand at the altar forever, ring in hand, awaiting evidence. You won't make a move until all of the facts are in. Yet that day may not come soon. Are you satisfied to simply wait?
But you claimed that there is such a thing as absolute truth. To reach absolute truth, you'd need to have ALL of the facts, not just some facts. How can you know when you have all of the facts?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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