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Author Topic:   Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 169 (775166)
12-29-2015 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by rstrats
12-28-2015 8:09 PM


However, for those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language I should think that one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used in order to say that it was common.
Well, there's Genesis:
quote:
And there was evening, and there was morningthe first day.
And there was evening, and there was morningthe second day.
And there was evening, and there was morningthe third day.
And there was evening, and there was morningthe fourth day.
And there was evening, and there was morningthe fifth day.
And there was evening, and there was morningthe sixth day.
It seems that a "day" is ticked off and counted after there is an evening and then a morning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by rstrats, posted 12-28-2015 8:09 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 169 (775191)
12-29-2015 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 4:41 PM


Today counts as day 1, not day 0. Tomorrow (or yesterday) is day 2, not day 1.
Right, but the problem in the OP stands.
From Good Friday to Easter Sunday, you have Friday day and Friday night, Saturday day and Saturday night, and then on Sunday day is the resurrection.
That's 3 day-times and 2 night-times, not 3 days and 3 nights.
Yes, it it 3 different days, but Matt 20:14 explicitly says "3 days and 3 nights".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 4:41 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 5:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 169 (775196)
12-29-2015 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 5:31 PM


this idiomatic phrase is not meant to be interpreted literally.
Agreed. I think it would make more sense, though, if Jesus was just borrowing a phrase rather than utilizing its idiom-ness. For instance:
The claim is that the phrase "3 days and 3 nights" is a common idiom for "3 days", and that "3 days" to a Hebrew meant "some part of each of three consecutive calendar days". Hence...
That's not very convincing. There is a considerable misalignment between Jesus and Jonah. The story of Jonah starts with him heading out and then getting swallowed up, then spending literally 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the beast, and then being barfed up onto a beach. That indicates that he was barfed on the forth day rather than the third. It it was the third, then he was started on day 0 and ended up on the beach on day 3.
That's not what Jesus meant, there was just three days where he dies and was resurrected; he was resurrected on the third day. It especially doesn't make since when the audience marks the next day after a night and morning.
But anyways, regardless, OP doesn't doubt that you can come up with ways to rationalize it, it's asking for:
quote:
other instances where the same pattern was used in order to say that it was common. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise.
In your case, it's looking for other instances of where the phrase "3 days and 3 nights" is a common idiom for "3 days" that the audience knows means "some part of each of three consecutive calendar days" rather than meaning in three days from now, like on the forth day if today is the first.
That's the problem, if you care to participate.
I realize that I have not proven this claim. Proving it would probably require some sort of trusted linguistic study of Hebrew idioms, and I don't know where to find this.
You might be able to search for instances other people doing that in regards to this issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 5:31 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 169 (775220)
12-30-2015 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 11:15 PM


I'm sorry, I didn't see your message #3.
If the slave was abandoned three days ago, then isn't today the fourth day?
On Easter Sunday, isn't Good Friday two days ago?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 169 (794464)
11-16-2016 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Pressie
11-16-2016 7:28 AM


Hey, it's easy. Day. Light. Night. Dark. All in 24 hours.
You're missing the point.
In Matthew 12:40 Jesus says that, like Jonah did in the whale, he will spend 3 days and 3 nights in the ground.
The issue is that He died on a Friday and was raised on a Sunday. That's 3 days but only 2 nights.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 169 (821125)
10-02-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by kbertsche
10-02-2017 12:53 PM


Re: Why?
My example was 1 Sam 30:11-15, which suggests that "three days and three nights" was a Hebrew idiom for "three days ago".
How, when, and where was this claim "refuted"??
Three days ago from Sunday is Thursday not Friday.
Good Friday is two days ago from Easter Sunday not three days ago.

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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 169 (821152)
10-03-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by kbertsche
10-02-2017 11:00 PM


Re: Why?
NewCatsEye writes:
Three days ago from Sunday is Thursday not Friday.
Good Friday is two days ago from Easter Sunday not three days ago.
Easter Sunday is the third day from Good Friday (cf. Lk 13:32).
So then, Saturday is the second day from Good Friday and Good Friday is the first day from Good Friday?
Friday is the first day from Friday? No, that don't make sense.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 169 (821197)
10-03-2017 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by kbertsche
10-03-2017 11:28 AM


Re: Why?
Read Lk 13:32 to see how they counted. Idioms don't always make sense to us, especially when they are from a distant culture and time.
Luke 13:32 doesn't actually contain an idiom. Also, the phrasing in Luke doesn't have much to do with the phrase in Matthew.
Here's Luke 13:32:
quote:
He replied, Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
So we have:
Today : Tomorrow : 3rd Day
Day 1 : Day 2 : Day 3
Friday : Saturday : Sunday
That all adds up.
Now, here's Matthew 12:40:
quote:
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jesus did not spend 3 days and also 3 nights in the tomb. But, I can accept that it's an idiom that can fit the timeframe.
However, your argument about Friday being three days ago from Sunday is not sound.
Friday being one day ago from Friday does not fit and is not supported by "3 days and 3 nights" being an idiom for about 3 days.
You have:
Today : 1 day ago : 2 days ago : 3 days ago
Sunday : Sunday : Saturday : Friday
Or:
Today : 1 day from now : 2 days from now : 3 days from now
Friday : Friday : Saturday : Sunday
But it should be:
Today : 1 day ago : 2 days ago : 3 days ago
Sunday : Saturday : Friday : Thursday
Or:
Today : 1 day from now : 2 days from now : 3 days from now
Friday : Saturday : Sunday : Monday
Either way, your "days from now" and "# days ago" arguments are wrong. They do not support that the idiom "3 days and 3 nights" means just Friday to Sunday.
I don't doubt that the idiom can mean that, but your arguments are not supporting it.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 169 (821277)
10-04-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by kbertsche
10-04-2017 4:42 PM


Re: Why?
The point here is extremely simple. The gospel writers say that Jesus was raised "on the third day". Lk 13:32 shows us that "the third day" was actually two days in the future. Very clear and simple.
That is not under contention... we're talking about Matthew 12:40.
quote:
Matt 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Here's the relevant section from Jonah:
quote:
Jonah
1:17 Now the Lord provided a huge fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
2:1-9 details Jonahs prayer while in the fish
2:10 And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.
3:1-3 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you. Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh.
In the story of Jonah, Jonah spends 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish and then gets out on the fourth day.
Jesus, on the other hand, spent 3 days and 2 nights in the earth and was raised on the third day.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 169 (821281)
10-04-2017 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by NoNukes
10-04-2017 9:12 PM


Re: Why?
How can we know that this is on the fourth day?
The third night was spent in the fish.
Then the fish barfed him up and the Lord appeared a second time and Jonah went to Nineveh.
It's fair to conclude that the second appearance and leaving was the next morning rather than that same night he was ejected.
I suppose you could force an interpretation where that all can technically happen during that third night, but that doesn't come off as a plain reading to me. And it doesn't make sense to travel to Nineveh in the middle of the night.
Aside, arguing that this is an idiom where a portion of that 3rd night can be referred to as the whole night seems like desperately trying to force any interpretation that saves face. That's just bad exegesis.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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