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Author Topic:   Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 168 (821182)
10-03-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by rstrats
12-28-2015 8:09 PM


A Rabbi says it's an idiom
This is one of the commentaries on Matthew 12:40 at Blue Letter Bible, the commentary by David Guzik. Go to the verse and then to the commentary under "Tools" to find it. He refers to a Rabbi who is quoted in a Commentary by Clarke:
i. Because Jesus here refers to three days and three nights, some think that Jesus had to spend at least 72 hours in the grave. This upsets most chronologies of the death and resurrection of Jesus, and is unnecessary — because it doesn’t take into account the use of ancient figures of speech. Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (around the year ad 100; cited in Clarke and other sources) explained this way of speaking when he wrote: A day and a night make a whole day, and a portion of a whole day is reckoned as a whole day. This demonstrates how in Jesus’ day, the phrase three days and three nights did not necessarily mean a full 72-hour period, but a period including at least the portions of three days and three nights. There may be other good reasons for challenging the traditional chronology of Jesus’ death and resurrection, but it is not necessary in order to fulfill the words of Jesus here.
This is clearly the framework for Jesus' rising "on the third day," Good Friday being the first day, the day He died, though late in the day since Jewish days begin at sunset of what to us is the previous day; then Saturday the second day, which was the Passover; then Sunday the third day on which He rose early in the morning, certainly not a full three days and nights but Sunday is nevertheless the "third day" counting from His crucifixion on Friday. His rising "on the third day" is repeated many times in the New Testament, just Search on the phrase at the Blue Letter Bible site.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 1 by rstrats, posted 12-28-2015 8:09 PM rstrats has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 168 (821203)
10-03-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by PaulK
10-03-2017 2:24 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's rounding up
Since we do not have even a portion of a third night the main problem is unsolved.
But it is solved: when the rabbi says that "A day and a night make a whole day" according to the idiom. That is, the night is included in the day, so insisting that the nights be counted separately misses the gist of the idiom: they are part of the day and don't have to be in the picture at all since a day is a day with or without them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 71 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 2:24 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 4:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 168 (821205)
10-03-2017 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by PaulK
10-03-2017 4:05 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's rounding up
The rabbi clearly meant what I said he meant.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 168 (821217)
10-03-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by PaulK
10-03-2017 4:21 PM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
Even your commentary says that you need portions of three nights to get three days and three nights.
It is not clear or even likely that he meant that the "three days and three nights" can be reasonably read as "one whole day and small parts of two more and two nights"
I think it clearly refers to three "days" in which nights may or may not be a portion.
BLB Commentary writes:
Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (around the year ad 100; cited in Clarke and other sources) explained this way of speaking when he wrote: A day and a night make a whole day, and a portion of a whole day is reckond as a whole day.
"A portion of a whole day is reckoned as a whole day" saying nothing about whether that portion includes any night time at all.
BLB commentary writes:
This demonstrates how in Jesus’ day, the phrase three days and three nights did not necessarily mean a full 72-hour period, but a period including at least the portions of three days and three nights.
Reading this in the light of the statement above the meaning is NOT that any portion of actual night time is necessary in referring to a day. It is ambiguously worded but that's because it's stating the idiom itself, not because it is now contradicting the statement just before it about reckoning a portion of a day, defined as a day and a night, night being regarded as part of the whole day. Night is subsumed under day, part of day, the day is the whole that includes night but since any portion is counted as a day that portion does not have to include night.
You apparently aren't going to accept this and I don't know why but I think you are clearly wrong and there is no need for any part of night to be included in a particular "day."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 4:21 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 11:51 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 168 (821219)
10-04-2017 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by rstrats
10-03-2017 6:00 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's an idiom
.. but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "X days AND X nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night"refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period.
But I think that is a distinction WE make that they didn't make, and that the rabbi's explanation is that night is subsumed under day in a way that you can have a whole day without including any night time at all.
Azariah's interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make sense. On the one hand he is saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then he turns right around and says that a day OR a night define an Onah. What makes more sense is that the rabbi is saying that a day is an Onah and a night is an Onah but that any part of a day can be counted as a whole day and any part of a night can be counted as a whole night. And that interpretation is supported by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries of Azariah, who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica". Also, a definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study" says: "The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."
Well, let the rabbis hash it out then. I think Azariah's version does make more sense: calling a "night and a day" a whole day in which night is subsumed in a way that means you can call a time period a "day and a night" meaning a whole day, but without there being any actual night as part of it. Jesus died within a few hours of sunset on Good Friday which would be the beginning of Saturday in the Jewish system, yet that day is reckoned as a whole day though it is only a few hours and there is no night at all included. Saturday then happens to be a full 24 hour day with a full daylight and a full darkness of night, but then Sunday includes the night but only a few hours of daylight and it too is referred to as a whole day. All three completely different time periods are rightly referred to as a "night and a day" meaning a whole day in Jewish reckoning as Azariah explains it. One hour of daylight can be a "day and a night" and so presumably could one hour of night time. So I'd go with Azariah's interpretation just because it gives consistency to the New Testament usage.
But if you disagree I'm no scholar of these things and I've given my view of how it reads to me so there's really no more to say.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 168 (821220)
10-04-2017 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by PaulK
10-03-2017 11:51 PM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
I thought you were disagreeing with me, but if not I'm sorry for the mistake.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2017 12:18 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 168 (821222)
10-04-2017 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
10-04-2017 12:18 AM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
Sorry, I thought I did. As I understand Rabbi Azariah's interpretation, no portion of a night is necessary at all in the phrase "a day and a night" meaning "a whole day."

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 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2017 12:18 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 90 of 168 (821224)
10-04-2017 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by PaulK
10-04-2017 12:30 AM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
Well, as I have explained, I disagree.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 94 of 168 (821233)
10-04-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by rstrats
10-04-2017 8:22 AM


Days and nights and why Friday?
So how about showing examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur?
The only one I know of is the three days from Jesus' crucifixion to his resurrection. I think kbertsche has conclusively shown that the gospel of Matthew refers to that event in two different ways which must be understood to be synonymous. I think that's conclusive myself, making "three days and three nights" clearly synonymous with references to Jesus' rising on the third day. It shows that "three days and three nights" IS an idiom that doesn't mean what we would mean by it today, and in context it refers to a period in which one of the days has no night at all and consists of just a few hours of daylight before sunset, and the third day consists of a few hours in the early morning (what if He rose before sunrise, then He would have risen in the dark or night, and yet it is called the third "day." This is so clear I don't see why there is still any argument.
Then the Rabbi who is quoted at the link I provided confirms the reasoning for this view.
Here's what kbertsche wrote:
2) that "three days and three nights" is synonymous for "the third day" (i.e. two days from now). Matthew himself uses both phrases interchangeably without noting a contradiction (the former in Mt. 12:40; the latter in 16:21; 17:23; and 20:19.) From Mt 27:57—28:1 it seems that this refers to a period of less than 48 hours.
BTW, what is there in scripture that makes it absolutely, positively, no question about it necessary for the crucifixion to have to have taken place on the 6th day of the week?
That's an interesting question and I don't know the answer and doing a quick bit of research didn't clear it up.
I've had the idea for years that because Jesus was crucified in connection with the Passover that it was in keeping with the instructions God gave the Israelites through Moses for the observance of Passover down the years, though I've never studied the connections myself.
I figured that since Jesus is our Sacrificial Lamb that He probably died on the day the lamb was slaughtered for the Passover observance, but various references put Passover on Thursday so now I'm confused about all that. I know the day of His crucifixion is called the Preparation Day in scripture, on which it would make sense that the lamb was slaughtered for the feast, but nothing I found in my research clearly bears out that idea. Granted I didn't spend a lot of time looking.
There is also a Preparation Day connected with every Sabbath observance, in which the Jews did all the work necessary for the observance in advance, since work is forbidden on the Sabbath, and this is still their practice.
Symbolically it seems to me that either for the Sabbath or the Passover it fits for the crucifixion to fall on a Preparation Day, because in relation to the Sabbath Jesus' death earns believers the ultimate Sabbath Rest; and in relation to the Passover His death is the event on which the sins of those who have painted the lamb's blood on the doorposts (those who have faith in Christ's death for us, and are protected by His blood) are all "passed over" by the angel of death, and it precedes/makes possible the great Exodus from "Egypt" -- this fallen world -- which we inherit through His sacrifice.
Such symbolism is common in scripture. John calls Jesus "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." There are many references in the Old Testament to His different roles as Messiah, including His being that lamb, starting with Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son Isaac, symbolizing God's sacrifice of His own Son; and Abraham tells Isaac "God will provide the lamb" and literally He does provide a ram caught in a thicket, to replace Isaac.
So there are MY ponderings for what it's worth even if I can't find anything online that says the same thing. I would guess I read all that somewhere but I don't remember where.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 96 of 168 (821235)
10-04-2017 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by PaulK
10-04-2017 10:17 AM


Re: Days and nights and why Friday?
The obvious reason why it has to be Friday is that the next day is the Sabbath.
Why not Thursday or Sunday?

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2017 10:34 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 168 (821237)
10-04-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by PaulK
10-04-2017 10:34 AM


Re: Days and nights and why Friday?
But why the previous day?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 168 (821239)
10-04-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by PaulK
10-04-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Days and nights and why Friday?
I'm not going to look them up but if they say that in so many words that's certainly the sufficient answer asked for.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 116 of 168 (821285)
10-05-2017 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by PaulK
10-05-2017 12:21 AM


Re: Why?
There is nothing wrong with kbertsche's evidence, it's quite solid: Matthew describes the same event in both terms, "three days and three nights" AND "He rose again on the third day." They refer to the same event, they are therefore synonymous, he's made the case that "three days and three nights" is not literal as we would use it, it fits what Rabbi Azariah describes of Jewish idiom.

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Replies to this message:
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