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Author Topic:   Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 58 of 169 (821147)
10-03-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by kbertsche
10-02-2017 11:00 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "Easter Sunday is the third day from Good Friday (cf. Lk 13:32)."
What would the first day from Good Friday be?
BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #51.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by kbertsche, posted 10-02-2017 11:00 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by kbertsche, posted 10-03-2017 11:24 AM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 66 of 169 (821183)
10-03-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by kbertsche
10-03-2017 11:24 AM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "If you read Lk 13:32, you should be able to figure out for yourself what the 'first day' would have been according to first century Hebrew idiom."
The Messiah did not say that any day was "from" a particular day as you did. It's a totally different construct with a totally different meaning.
re: "I haven't been able to find a passage which exactly answers your question in post #51
You said that you gave an example in post #3. That is the specific example that I would like for you to address because I see nothing in the example which precludes at least a portion of each one of three daytimes and at least a portion of each one of three night times. Please explain how you think that it does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by kbertsche, posted 10-03-2017 11:24 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by kbertsche, posted 10-03-2017 2:11 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 80 of 169 (821210)
10-03-2017 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by kbertsche
10-03-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "Please go back and re-read my post #3. As I said there, the evidence SUGGESTS that this is an idiom. It does not PROVE that this is an idiom..."
OK, let me try to clarify the topic request:
1. The Messiah said that 3 nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".
2. There are some folks who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.
3. Of those, some think that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb,
4. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.
5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of the folks mentioned in the 3rd point say that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time.
6. If it was common usage to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur, examples would have to be known in order to legitimately say that is was common.
7. I am simply asking for some of those examples, i.e., actual instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by kbertsche, posted 10-03-2017 2:11 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by kbertsche, posted 10-03-2017 10:58 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 81 of 169 (821213)
10-03-2017 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
10-03-2017 1:52 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's an idiom
Faith,
re: " Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (around the year ad 100; cited in Clarke and other sources) explained this way of speaking when he wrote: 'A day and a night make a whole day, and a portion of a whole day is reckoned as a whole day.'
As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a calendar day as a whole calendar day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "X days AND X nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night"refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase X days AND X nights was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English.
Azariah's interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make sense. On the one hand he is saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then he turns right around and says that a day OR a night define an Onah. What makes more sense is that the rabbi is saying that a day is an Onah and a night is an Onah but that any part of a day can be counted as a whole day and any part of a night can be counted as a whole night. And that interpretation is supported by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries of Azariah, who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica". Also, a definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study" says: "The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 1:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:09 AM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 92 of 169 (821229)
10-04-2017 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by kbertsche
10-03-2017 10:58 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "I haven't been able to find any example which EXACTLY, DEFINITIVELY shows what you ask."
OK, sorry. I misunderstood you. I thought you were trying to explain the lack of a 3rd night time by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time. Perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.

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rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 93 of 169 (821230)
10-04-2017 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
10-04-2017 12:09 AM


Re: A Rabbi says it's an idiom
Faith,
re: "But I think that is a distinction WE make that they didn't make..."
So how about showing examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur?
BTW, what is there in scripture that makes it absolutely, positively, no question about it necessary for the crucifixion to have to have taken place on the 6th day of the week?
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 10:06 AM rstrats has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 111 of 169 (821276)
10-04-2017 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by kbertsche
10-04-2017 4:42 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "But there is no 'problem' here. According to Matthew 27-28, this is exactly what happened. Jesus was buried on Good Friday and raised 'on the third day', Easter Sunday. Yes, He was buried for two nights, not three."
So why do you suppose He specifically said that 3 nights would be involved, and why do you suppose He specifically said that He would rise "after" 3 days, and why do you suppose the men on the road to Emmaus on the 1st day of the week said that it was the 3rd day "since" the crucifixion?
Edited by rstrats, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by kbertsche, posted 10-04-2017 4:42 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by kbertsche, posted 10-05-2017 12:19 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 119 of 169 (821289)
10-05-2017 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
10-04-2017 12:09 AM


Re: A Rabbi says it's an idiom
Faith,
re: "I think Azariah's version does make more sense: calling a 'night and a day' a whole day in which night is subsumed in a way that means you can call a time period a 'day and a night' meaning a whole day, but without there being any actual night as part of it."
Would you say that was common usage in the first century and before?

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 Message 85 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 126 of 169 (821330)
10-05-2017 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by kbertsche
10-05-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "What do you think is the main point of Mt. 12:39-40?"
I believe you've answered that question in your post #123.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by kbertsche, posted 10-05-2017 12:19 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by kbertsche, posted 10-05-2017 5:06 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 127 of 169 (821332)
10-05-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PaulK
10-05-2017 1:28 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "Yes, except that the OP specifically requested a focused discussion on whether or not this phrase was an idiom."
There is no doubt that it was an idiom, if idiom in this particular instance is referring to the practice of counting any part of a calendar day as a calelndar day. However, that is not a concern of this topic. The intent of it is clarified in post #4: "This topic is not about calendar days. It's about daytimes and night times and whether or not it was "common" to say that a daytime and/or a night time was to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2017 1:28 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2017 4:21 PM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 130 of 169 (822664)
10-31-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by kbertsche
10-05-2017 5:06 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "Do you agree with the main point as I described it in post #123?"
Yes, but it's an issue for a different topic. Perhaps you could start one.

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 Message 129 by kbertsche, posted 10-05-2017 5:06 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 131 of 169 (822667)
10-31-2017 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by PaulK
10-05-2017 4:21 PM


Re: Why?
PaulK,
re: "I think there is a legitimate question whether it was purely idiomatic or just normal rounding up."
And I'm looking for examples where no daytime or no night time was "rounded up" to one daytime or one night time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2017 4:21 PM PaulK has not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 132 of 169 (826355)
12-29-2017 9:46 AM


Someone new looking in may know of examples.

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 9:53 AM rstrats has replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 134 of 169 (826359)
12-29-2017 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phat
12-29-2017 9:53 AM


Re: Topic?
Phat,
re: "Im trying to differentiate your comments in this thread from the main topic started by the originator."
I am the originator. And the main topic - actually the only topic - is the same as clarified in subsequent posts.
1. The Messiah said that three nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".
2. There are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.
3. Of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.
4. However, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.
5. To account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.
6. In order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.
I am simply wondering if anyone knows of examples to support the idea of commonality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 9:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 139
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 135 of 169 (828362)
02-16-2018 1:15 PM


Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

  
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