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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1701 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Don't get your hopes up: young earth (YE) is a failed belief, and has been for a couple of hundred years.
The ability of some to find oil using relative dating does not prove YE. When you consider the results of real dating, YE fails miserably no matter how much you might need to believe in it. Dozens of different methods, using different materials, all show the same thing: epic fail for YE! Even the simple radiocarbon dating I do shows YE to be false. [If you don't like the assumptions behind these dating methods, please explain why on the appropriate thread I started over a month ago just for that purpose.]Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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The oldest date I've obtained personally in the western US is 9,410 BP.
Another site you could add to the list: the Manis Mastodon Site in Sequim, WA. Several dates there are on the close order of 13,800 BP. Another site, one that I worked on, is the Marmes Rockshelter, in central Washington. It goes past 11,000 BP. There are quite a few others as well. All show that the young earth idea fails. And try as the might creationists have not been able to find any flaws in radiocarbon dating, though they will often shout "assumptions," as if that invalidated a whole branch of science.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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But the vast preponderance of the strata are STILL FLAT. Gravity sucks...Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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One flaw in your argument, which you have to ignore as you can't deal with it, is the dating.
Those layers can be dated in various ways and they don't all occur in a single year, or anything close to it. In reality, they are spread over hundreds of millions of years. That demolishes both YEC in general and your "dead landscapes" argument in particular. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Your response does nothing to address the dating--it merely repeats your dogma that the dating is wrong, somehow, any how!
And scientific dating is far more complex than just radiometric dating. Quite a few examples have been provided to you in these threads, but because you aren't able to deal with the science you resort to denial more than anything. Quite simply, scientific dating has disproved conclusively the YEC dogma.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Well the world was once a single continent well covered with plants because of its very pleasant climate, also an abundance of animal life, along with a lot of sinful human beings. The last time there was a single continent was about 175 million years ago. Modern humans came along about 174.8 million years later.
For about a hundred years, Noah was building a big boat as per instructions from God, and preaching to the crowds who gathered to laugh at him, about how they could be saved from a great Flood of water that was coming to destroy the Earth because of their sins. And they didn't believe him so only Noah and his family were saved on the ark along with a few of every kind of animal. It started raining when Noah was 600 years old, and it rained for forty days and forty nights all over the entire earth, causing local floods and mudslides and increasing the level of the oceans until everything was drowned. Eventually the water all drained away and the only living human beings left were Noah and his family, along with the animals on the ark and some that survived on their own in the oceans and wherever. Everything on land would certainly have been covered in mud, but it turns out that it was covered in huge layers of different kinds of mud that had buried everything that had lived on the land. Shall I go on? No. And you shouldn't really be reciting your catechism on the science threads, should you?
I'm SO tired from battling all you lovely atheists, evolutionists and geologists I have to stop here and come back to answer the rest later. As long as you keep espousing mythology that has long since been disproved you should expect to encounter disagreements.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Faith writes:
No, you're flat out wrong. Coyote writes: The last time there was a single continent was about 175 million years ago. Modern humans came along about 174.8 million years later. Sorry, that's interpretation, not fact. The dating of various things can be established and cross-checked by various methods. The results are facts. What you are espousing is the interpretation--you are looking at facts and ignoring, misrepresenting, or misinterpreting them to fit your a priori religious belief no matter what the facts say. We should have an "Apologetics" Forum for you, as what you are preaching certainly isn't science--its the exact opposite--and doesn't really belong in the Science Forum.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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I don't address questions that look too technical for me, which I've said a hundred million times already. And I haven't even read jar's question. I simply do not care. There are going to be lots of questions I can't answer and couldn't care less about. This seems to be a pretty typical creationists approach--rather than studying the science they are attacking, they simply attack out of religious belief. The evidence that contradicts their beliefs doesn't matter, nor does the scientific method or logic. To put it bluntly, "The bible says it, I believe it and that settles it." That's the exact opposite of science, known as apologetics.
Meanwhile I've made some really good arguments here that are simple but crucial support for the Flood, that nobody seems able to grasp. We do grasp what you're claiming, and why, but your claims are contradicted by the evidence. To make those claims you have to ignore huge amounts of contradictory evidence, misrepresent much of the rest, and misunderstand everything else. Your errors have been pointed out to you on many occasions, but you persist in supporting belief in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That's apologetics, not science. Perhaps you'd be a lot happier if you just admitted that. A personal note: You seem to be a really nice person, and this website would be the poorer without your contributions, but there comes a point where real-world evidence has to be acknowledged and not just hand-waved away. Reality may suck, but its not going to go away because one wishes it to do so, or tries to ignore it.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Well, coyote, thanks for the personal note, but I don't see that I've failed to produce evidence or have denied evidence either. Unfortunately, that's the result of blind adherence to dogma--it blinds one to anything else. Or, as Heinlein said, "Belief gets in the way of learning." I hope that those of us on the science side can change our minds when the occasion requires. I am currently reassessing a major point I made in my Ph.D. dissertation some decades past in light of new evidence (most of which I produced). It is an obscure archaeological issue 1200-4500 years ago but I'd rather be right, even decades later, than cling to an error that I made. For science there's no credit for being wrong!
However, as usually happens at this point in a thread where everybody seems to me to be committed to utter irrational trashing of everything I say for no good reason whatever, I have a great desire to leave EvC and never come back. Too bad that desire never lasts. I would hope you don't leave--although we disagree, I consider you an integral part of this site. For every fine cat there is a fine rat (feel free to turn that around whichever way fits best).Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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The evidence is neutral and I can use it. It doesn't belong to OE geology. I reject OE theory about it, their interpretation or explanation of it. There is no contradiction at all. The evidence is mine, you can have the theory. In science, theories derive from the evidence, and they explain all relevant evidence. Repeat: Theories explain all relevant evidence. Theories (or more usually hypotheses) are continually tested. Many fail and are disproved. This is the difference between science and apologetics, which is what you are doing. You simply reject evidence that disproves your hypotheses, and continue on as if they were still valid. They are not. You rely on belief, and reject any evidence that contradicts your belief. As such, you have no business claiming you are doing science as you are doing the exact opposite. You should at least be honest about this. That would be most refreshing.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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EXPLAINING the fossil order is what is not necessary; KNOWING the fossil order is something else and YECs who've studied geology know it as well as you do. As has been posted here over and over, science in general and scientific theories in particular explain things. That is what science does! In this case, science explains the fossil order by means of a theory that has withstood many challenges, accounts for all of the relevant data, and is not contradicted by any relevant data. YEC "science" and flood geology have not withstood challenges (except in the minds of true believers), cannot account for all of the relevant data, and have to simply ignore contrary data.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Having an explanation is of no value whatever if it's the wrong explanation. Of course that is true. Science relies on data, evidence, logic, and the scientific method as well as constant attempts to disprove hypotheses and theories. For example, every new fossil that is found is a test of a number of theories. Creation "science" relies on scripture and dogma, rather than data, evidence, and logic, and abhors the scientific method--thus it is the exact opposite of real science. Those who rely on creation "science" often see real science as having the wrong explanation, but that is because they rely on belief instead of evidence. That has been explained to us here on several occasions. Perhaps the solution is for each side to be more explicit what underlies their claims. Science can say "our evidence and theories show this...," while creationists can say, "scripture leads me to believe this... ." As a friend noted, Preachers are always complaining that "scientists are playing God," but all too often, their confusion is the result of preachers playing scientist. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Yes the FOUNDATION of YEC attempts to explain the physical world IS the scripture, but you miss the main arguments YECs make, that make NO use whatever of scripture but argue completely from the physical facts as they present themselves. Unfortunately that's not the case. YECs attempt to explain the physical world in terms of scripture, but the facts don't support that explanation. That leads to enormous stretches of interpretation, misinterpretation of facts, ignoring facts that run contrary to belief, in some cases making up facts, quote mining, and other problems.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
You made a lot of accusations in that post. Please support even one of them from anything I've argued. I don't want to get too off the subject of the thread, but one prime example is that YECs can't accept the results of a dozen or more different forms of dating that all agree, and all point to the same conclusion--an old earth. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2363 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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If it is true that there is a natural end to evolution as I've argued many times, your dating methods are therefore wrong...
The many different dating methods are entirely separate from the theory of evolution. And in fact, each of those dating methods relies on a different set of circumstances, mostly independent from one another! For them all to show the same results, and all to be wrong, would mean that all of physics and chemistry are wrong. [That would mean nothing would work, including your computer and your body, let alone the rest of the universe.] You can't pick and choose what you like and what you don't like from a very intensely inter-correlated and inter-related set of disciplines without disrupting the entire thing. Is that what you really want to propose?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
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