Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Glenn Morton's Evidence Examined
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 427 (790960)
09-08-2016 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-08-2016 3:28 PM


How long that would take to erode away 277 miles of canyon to a depth of one mile and a width at some points of eighteen miles I'm not sure, but it wouldn't take millions of years.
You are sure based on what rationale other than the Old Testament which provides zero details other than describing the rising of water as 'gentle'?
Seriously, you are questioning the impressions of a YEC believer who knew and stll knows more about geology than you ever comprehend. It is pretty clear that the evidence Morton found was not something he easily accepted, but was, in fact, something that continues to torture him.
Unless you can show that the answer is measured in months rather than years, based on some reasoned explanation, I don't see why your personal position should carry any weight.
Or phrased another way, the less you know the easier it becomes to dismiss the science. The science is not just a mere story about what details are found. It is more than even a story about multiple sources of evidence that point in the same direction. It is also about the science leading to predictions that also come true.
I agree to some extent that what geologist know can be condensed into a set of rule that would allow even a YEC person to find oil. But it is also true that a YEC could never have formulated the rules that are used based on Flood geology. Creation Science is an attempt to explain what real science has identified. But it appears to be useless at predicting new lines of inquiry.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 3:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 09-08-2016 4:45 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 4:59 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 16 by petrophysics1, posted 09-08-2016 5:43 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 24 of 427 (790979)
09-08-2016 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
09-08-2016 4:59 PM


f Morton believed the OE explanation that the GC was carved by the Colorado River then of course he's tortured by it. That idea ought to be ridiculous to anyone in my opinion.
Again, the idea that you personally find some proposed geological process ridiculous is an opinion without the least bit of persuasive power.
Morton wanted to believe that the grand canyon was formed during the flood, but the evidence he encountered did not support such a belief. That, and not some story about what atheists believed was the source of Morton's dilemma. So the question remains, what is the basis of your belief that the grand canyon was formed in a matter of months? Morton was unable to find among his fellow YEC believers anyone who was able to say their experience in the field looking at the evidence that they saw with their own two eyes was explained using Flood geology.
Yet your claim is essentially that Morton did not know what you know about what really happened. Such hubris.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 4:59 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 09-08-2016 8:31 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 2:51 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 427 (791036)
09-09-2016 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
09-09-2016 9:53 AM


Re: On Meanders
Since there is no way anyone will ever agree with me here I am reduced to simply asserting that my interpretation is the correct one and yours are all ridiculously inadequate.
Make an argument. Nobody is going to consider a mere assertion by you about a science topic. Particularly in the face of the fact that Paul and others are providing actual arguments.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 9:53 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 70 of 427 (791049)
09-09-2016 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by kbertsche
09-09-2016 1:53 AM


I am merely reporting what I've been told by former YECs who worked successfully in oil exploration while operating under a YEC paradigm.
"while operating under a YEC paradigm" does not seem to mean applying YEC assumptions, but simply not worrying about how old stuff was while searching for oil, and while continuing to believe the earth was young. It does not seem to mean that assuming a young earth was the least bit helpful in finding oil.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by kbertsche, posted 09-09-2016 1:53 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by petrophysics1, posted 09-09-2016 2:15 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 88 by kbertsche, posted 09-09-2016 11:34 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 83 of 427 (791069)
09-09-2016 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
09-09-2016 2:51 AM


This sort of claim needs to be supported since I have no idea WHAT "evidence" you are talking about. I have no problem explaining the Grand Canyon by the Flood and don't see why anyone else would.
You have no problem 'explaining' things because you don't know enough about the evidence to know what is wrong with your explanations. You never make any attempt to vet your own explanations by checking whether they explain all that can be seen. Glen, unfortunately for his own psyche, was confronted with the evidence because of his work, and his education. Glen was not free to label stuff he did not like as illusion as you do.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 2:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 10:02 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 10:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 93 of 427 (791084)
09-10-2016 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
09-09-2016 10:56 PM


You ASSUME Glenn was reading the evidence accurately; you ASSUME his judgment was the most reasonable judgment possible.
Wrong. You are still struggling to figure out how rock layers are formed while trying to deny the evidence that supports the explanations you've been given. So I assume that your reading is completely bogus.
There is no reason at all to think it took such a long time and every reason to recognize that the Flood is enough to account for a rapid carving of the canyon.
The explanation have to describe all of the evidence including the ordering of fossils, the radiometric characteristics associated with non-sedimentary layers, etc. Your explanation is that what is observed is illusion. But Morris faced the reality of what you call illusion in his work.
So we make some supportable about Morris ability to view the evidence based on his education and we can use both observation and your lack of experience and your daily errors to make some judgments regarding your own hypotheses.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 09-09-2016 10:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 8:05 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 427 (791101)
09-10-2016 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
09-10-2016 8:05 AM


I am not "struggling" to find out anything about rock layers. I suppose you draw that wrong conclusion from the other thread? But that thread has the purpose of showing that the standard Geo understanding is wrong.
Your failure to understand standard geology is manifestly on display in that thread. You don't appear to even know what it is that is wrong after 100s of posts on the matter.
When he describes how YECs reacted to his changed views I feel sorry for him. I don't accuse him of being insincere
No. You have accuse him instead of being stupid ignorant of the explanations you know, which are largely made up and held by you alone. You accuse him of holding a ridiculous belief, which is how you describe the old earth's beliefs. And you do all of that while knowing a tiny fraction of the evidence Morris encountered on a routine basis.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 8:05 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 106 of 427 (791102)
09-10-2016 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
09-10-2016 8:05 AM


I am not "struggling" to find out anything about rock layers. I suppose you draw that wrong conclusion from the other thread? But that thread has the purpose of showing that the standard Geo understanding is wrong.
Your failure to understand standard geology is manifestly on display in that thread. You don't appear to even know what it is that is wrong after 100s of posts on the matter.
When he describes how YECs reacted to his changed views I feel sorry for him. I don't accuse him of being insincere
No. You have accuse him instead of being stupid ignorant of the explanations you know, which are largely made up and held by you alone. You accuse him of holding a ridiculous belief, which is how you describe the old earth's beliefs. And you do all of that while knowing a tiny fraction of the evidence Glen encountered on a routine basis.
I feel sorry for Glen because he faced a needless dilemma, and because he apparently remains tortured by his inability to resolve things in favor of the YEC view. If you really want to make this thread about the evidence and not some failing on Glen's part, you'd be talking about why he was wrong in specific terms instead of just making accusations that he'd lost his faith. But the problem is that you don't have any clue what you are talking abbout.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 8:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 2:56 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 111 of 427 (791110)
09-10-2016 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
09-10-2016 2:56 PM


You are totally wrong about what I'm doing on that other thread, ridiculously totally absolutely wrong.
The entire thread is based on a premise that is totally nonsense because geology current does have an explanation for rock layers. But rather than attack the actually theory, you spend hundreds of post insisting that there was no explanation, when instead the explanation is simple. Since Stile is now essentially the only person who you are willing to discuss with at this point, Stile is forced to walk you through an obvious explanation that everyone else grasped immediately.
The evidence is available for everyone to see.
With respect to Glen, I have yet to see you point to any evidence and show where he made an error. Instead you have simple attacked him as a fool. If you have something of substance to post you'd have done so. Instead you are simply preaching YEC in a science forum rather than providing argument and evidence.
You were given a choice of putting this somewhere other than a science forum, but you chose this forum. Well guess what, arguments that Morton was wrong because he should have rejected evidence and interpretations based on his faith are not really applicable in this forum.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 2:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 8:36 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 117 of 427 (791133)
09-11-2016 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-08-2016 3:28 PM


But this sounds like someone who never did have the YEC point of view on the Grand Canyon, rather someone who accepts the Old Earth idea that it must have taken a lot of time to carve it.
What this ignores is that Morton came to this conclusion over time. Morton was unquestionably YEC before becoming a geologist. If you've read his writings, you wouldn't misinterpret his single statement here that the grand canyon actually took a long time to carve as you do.
Of course folks other than Morton, pretty much all of whom were YEC, reached similar conclusions something like 100 years before Morton did.
And I also object to the idea that a canyon seen on seismic imaging deep underground was ever at the surface. I'd expect it to have been carved by rushing water running underground between the strata also at the end of the Flood when the strata were still soft.
In short, not because of any knowledge you have that others don't but simply because you must reject anything non YEC regardless of the strength of the inference from evidence.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-08-2016 3:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 120 of 427 (791136)
09-11-2016 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
09-10-2016 8:13 AM


Well, that's certainly a new wrinkle on the Glenn Morton story. To me anyway. Now what
What a curious comment... The stuff cited was written by Morton 15 years ago, and is fairly central to his story. Dwise1 has posted portions of that story off an on here over the years.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 09-10-2016 8:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 6:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 427 (791140)
09-12-2016 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
09-11-2016 6:52 PM


I don't know much about Glenn Morton. His name comes up a lot as a source of evidence against YEC, and someone who converted from YEC himself, and that's really all I've known about him. I started the thread to address the evidence he is known for, and now have read some more about him personally, but still not a lot.
I can appreciate that. Nothing at all wrong there. Perhaps if your OP had been inquisitive about Morton rather than accusatory, I wouldn't have gotten off on such an aggressive footing. In hindsight, I wish I had stopped with asking you the basis of your opinion.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-11-2016 6:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 8:46 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 136 of 427 (791153)
09-12-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
09-12-2016 8:46 AM


but all I intended was to use Morton's arguments as a basis for the thread
okay...
I hesitate now even to bring up one of the arguments though.
I understand your hesitation. So what was the point of this thread? and what is its point now?
For the most part, Morton's statements about his conclusions are often summaries and conclusions and are not intended to convey exactly what persuaded him, but instead to describe what he became persuaded about. Apparently Morton did a lot of writing for one or more Christian publications and spent time questioning some of the leading creation science proponents. Perhaps it is there that you will find the facts you should be contesting.
Yet you claim here that you are better than both Morton and those creation scientists of his day whom opposed him; that your explanations, presumably as posted here, would be better than those of say Kurt Wise who at least had studied the field. I personally find that idea hubris laden and laughable. At least it is entertaining.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 8:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 10:59 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 427 (791200)
09-12-2016 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
09-12-2016 10:59 AM


All you are saying is that a creationist dare not say anything against the OE theory. No right to think about it without a degree, though even those with the relevant degrees are not qualified to judge by many comments at EvC.
I did not say anything like that, and I'm pretty sure you know I did not.
What I am pointing out is that your judgement of Morton is without basis. You neither know what he said, nor what arguments others raised up against him. Yet you still claim superiority over both Morton and the creation scientist of his day.
You might be able to learn enough information to have an informed opinion, but by your own admission you have not. Now add on top of that the lack of formal education on geology, chemistry, physics, etc., and you begin to understand the direction of my criticism of you.
Here you've talked about scientific ideas having to be 'credible'. But quite obviously credibility is in the eyes of the beholder. Nobody really gives a crap if a college freshman, for example, does not find Einstein's theory of gravitation credible. I don't see any basis to consider your idea of what is and is not credible to be informative. That applies equally well to both Morton's position, or that of Kurt Wise, for example.
I get quite shaken at the accusations I encounter here, but once I'm committed to a point of view I don't easily give it up and that will remain through all the accusations you can throw at me.
I could have said something similar, but it might have included a reference to a bag of hammers. I'm not sure that your statement is any kind of self compliment.
ABE:
Looks like there is some bleed through from another thread here. I had to recheck to make sure I hadn't blundered into that other morass of a forum.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 09-12-2016 10:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 427 (791221)
09-12-2016 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
09-12-2016 8:26 PM


Re: the utter nonsense of uninhabitable landscapes:
There are almost no uninhabitable landscapes on the surface of the earth, near the surface of the earth in the lakes and rivers of the earth, in the seas of the earth, in the skies of the earth and the few local uninhabitable landscapes that do exist are transient, very localized and very soon colonized.
Nicely said.
Faith either need to stop asserting such nonsense or provide examples that can be examined because so far all the examples she has mentioned are not uninhabitable and in fact are inhabited
Or the rest of us can stop dignifying her offerings with replies. Don't the last couple of dozen or so messages belong in that other thread?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 09-12-2016 8:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 09-13-2016 7:44 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 188 by jar, posted 09-13-2016 9:35 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024