Summations Only

Faith, the conventional theory does not expect features to be global; the really pathetic theory is the Global Flood.

For reference : WikipediaLet me repeat that last sentence: A classic example of this law is the vertical stratigraphic succession that typifies marine transgressions and regressions.

Short list today:

1. This thread is not about the flood. I'll be issuing very short suspensions to those posting flood messages, just to get their attention in case they're skipping my messages.
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2. From Faith's Message 1105:
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   Faith in Message 1105 writes:

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   You are calling a general critique of the thinking in a field "name calling?"
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   Faith's has repeated this "general critique" many times, and this time she gave it a name, but "epistemopathy" is not the topic. My actual request to Faith was to focus on the topic and to critiques of the interpretations of evidence she thinks are wrong.
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3. From Faith's Message 1118:
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   Faith in Message 1118 writes:

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   I realized that the situation Stile is describing has nothing to do with Walther's Law anyway, since that applies to sediments deposited by changing sea levels. He is talking about ocean transgressing over, or into, a sedimentary accumulation that was deposited by terrestrial means.
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   Since Stile's scenario has advanced to the point of a transgressing sea, and since Walther's Law explains the stratigraphy resulting from transgressing and regressing seas, and since Faith doesn't think Walther's Law applies to transgressions onto terrestrial sedimentary layers, I think there should be more discussion about Walther's Law in order to bring about a mutual understanding.

OOPS, sorry, didn't see note forbidding Flood messages until after I posted this. But collecting the pictures was so difficult I have to leave them up. So if it's a suspension, oh well.========================
Just cuz I love them, some pictures of light-colored cliffs from a distance, all similar in form* to the chalk cliffs of Dover. Of course I know that the Flood formed them although you all deny it.The White Cliffs of Dover first: The Coconino sandstone, Grand Canyon, the white band of rock seen from a distance: Close up of the Coconino: Grand Staircase, Utah: pink cliffs, white cliffs, vermillion cliffs... ============================================
* Not going to make another post since the Flood is off-topic and suspensions are promised for violations. But I have to answer jar whose mutterings about all the "differences" between chalk and the other layers are irrelevant, because I'm talking about the form of the deposits. They are all thick flat rocks that extend great distances horizontally, with originally flat surfaces, which indicates the same kind of deposition for all, which is what would be expected of the Flood, Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Walther's Law has nothing to do with the problem this thread is addressing. Period.

But of course reality shows that none of the other pictures are similar to the chalk deposits. Chalk is quite different than other light colored minerals and believe it or not conventional geology actually knows how the different minerals get formed.One very notable difference is that you do not see signs of bedding or layering in the chalk deposit except for the pieces of flint found in the upper portions. Interestingly the conventional theories also explain one way the flint nodules might get formed and why they are found embedded in chalk deposits.From Wikipedia:

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The exact mode of formation of flint is not yet clear but it is thought that it occurs as a result of chemical changes in compressed sedimentary rock formations, during the process of diagenesis. One hypothesis is that a gelatinous material fills cavities in the sediment, such as holes bored by crustaceans or molluscs and that this becomes silicified. This hypothesis certainly explains the complex shapes of flint nodules that are found. The source of dissolved silica in the porous media could be the spicules of silicious sponges.[3] Certain types of flint, such as that from the south coast of England, contain trapped fossilised marine flora. Pieces of coral and vegetation have been found preserved like amber inside the flint. Thin slices of the stone often reveal this effect.

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Puzzling giant flint formations known as paramoudra and flint circles are found around Europe but especially in Norfolk, England on the beaches at Beeston Bump and West Runton.[5]

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Flint sometimes occurs in large flint fields in Jurassic or Cretaceous beds, for example in Europe.

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and from West Sussex Geology

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The formation of flint is a complex process which began in the chalk seas millions of years ago and is, summarised below:

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Organisms such as sponges (on the macro scale) and radiolaria/diatoms (on the micro scale) use silica from sea water to manufacture the biogenic opal which forms their skeletons. When the organisms die and the organic parts decay the microscopic silica is scattered on the sea bed and becomes incorporated in the accumulating sediment.

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At depths of 1 to 5m within this sediment, the biogenic opal breaks down, enriching the water between the sediment particles (sediment pore water) with silica.

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At sediment depths of less than 10m, there is an oxic-anoxic boundary where hydrogen sulphide rising from the decomposing organic material within the sediment diffuses upwards meets oxygen diffusing downwards from the water column above. At this interface, the hydrogen sulphide is oxidised to sulphate with hydrogen ions as a by-product. The hydrogen ions lower the local pH, dissolving the chalk and thereby increasing the concentration of carbonate ions. These act as a seeding agent for the precipitation of silica.

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Silica precipitates by the molecule-by-molecule replacement of chalk. The silica is initially in the form of crystalline opal but gradually transforms to quartz (flint) during later burial and with time.

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The chalk sea bed is deeply burrowed by many different organisms, such as shells, echinoids and worms etc. Some of these burrows are quite deep or branching, or have open living spaces. The burrows fill with sediment after the organism has died, this is slightly different material from the sediment around it. These filled burrows act as preferential pathways (conduits) for the chemical reactions to occur. Flint formed within these old burrows often has a nodular shape which reflects the whole, or part of, overgrown remnants of such burrow systems.

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There are two possible explanations for why flint forms in bands or layers. Firstly because chalk sedimentation occurs in cycles and secondly because the process above exhausts the silica within a given depth of sediment and flint formation can only recommence when there is enough silica to start the process again.

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AbE:There is another very important point irrefutably demonstrated by the pictures Faith was nice enough to find and post and that is the clear evidence that processes were local and not global. The materials in geological columns vary from location to location and demonstrate clearly different processes and environments over time and over distance. They show examples of chalk deposits and sand stone and igneous materials and mudstone and also variations between marine and terrestrial deposits that are stacked vertically.Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Ummmm, Faith ...A marine transgression IS a change of sea level.And actually, Walther's Law has to do with your questions about environments residing side by side; along with how one environment overrides another by transgression.That's why I brought it up. To help you understand what happens.

See my previous post and maybe dial back a little bit on the querulous posting.

Please repeat whatever you said in the post you want me to review, or better yet, restate what you think I need to know in new terms.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Thank you for repeating it.Something is getting confused here. The "side-by-side" phenomenon described by Walther's Law has to do with the sedimentary deposits brought about by the transgressing sea itself, the vertical layering plus the lateral deposits all as a result of the transgression.The example I'm exploring with Stile is something else entirely: terrestrial sediments being transgressed by the sea, which is a different situation. If it involves Walther's Law it nevertheless has nothing to do with the lateral deposits laid down BY the sea.AND I've never seen a stratigraphic column with side-by-side sediments of either source. I suppose it could happen but I haven't seen it. And again the side-by-side situation in this example is NOT the kind of situation Walther's Law explains.If there is something more you want to say about Walther's Law please say it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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The "side-by-side" phenomenon described by Walther's Law has to do with the sedimentary deposits brought about by the transgressing sea itself, the vertical layering plus the lateral deposits all as a result of the transgression.

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If you note Message 1127 you will see that Walther's law is a general principle when environments lie side-by-side. Transgression and regression are simply the classic example.

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The example I'm exploring with Stile is something else entirely: terrestrial sediments being transgressed by the sea, which is a different situation. If it involves Walther's Law it nevertheless has nothing to do with the lateral deposits laid down BY the sea.

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The terrestrial sediments laid down near the shore should obviously be included - the idea that Walther's Law is solely about sediments laid down BY the sea even when dealing with a transgression is simply wrong.

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AND I've never seen a stratigraphic column with side-by-side sediments of either source. I suppose it could happen but I haven't seen it. And again the side-by-side situation in this example is NOT the kind of situation Walther's Law explains.

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The whole reason for bringing up Walther's Law is that it is exactly the situation that Walther's law describes.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

I'm still trying to figure this one out. Just the two first photos. The white chalk cliffs of Dover and a band of sandstones somewhere America were formed by a global flood because they both are white? Really?

Just a short note clarifying one thing today. In Message 1136 Faith said: It is environments that are side-by-side, not sedimentary layers. In the case of Walther's Law the coastline is the boundary between side-by-side terrestrial and marine environments. The movement of coastlines back and forth across land, transgressions and regressions, results in a familiar pattern of nearly horizontal sedimentary deposits. The movement is a necessarily slow process as it takes time for sediments to accumulate to the depths we see recorded in strata like those of the Grand Canyon.

Sorry to confuse you. No, I just chose white rocks because we were talking about the cliffs of Dover and white shows up nicely at a distance. The subject was the similarity in FORM, not color, form meaning thickness, original flatness, great horizontal extent which all the strata share, all the strata of all colors in the photos, not just white. Shouldn't have put such emphasis on the white I guess, just made a nice parallel with Dover. All the other colors do just as well for examples of what the Flood would have done. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.