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Author | Topic: Free will vs Omniscience | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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If God created us with foreknowledge, then we have no free-will. However, if God did not create us with foreknowledge.. and simply de-scribes our future after the point of our creation.. then we can have free-will. Is God omnipotent-enough to create us without foreknowledge? Or does omnipotence have restrictions? If God knows the decisions we will make before we make them then we have no freewill. But if the God only knows those actions after the act of Creation then the God is not evil. The only way for us to have freewill and for the God to have any foreknowledge is if the God can also be wrong.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Of course that position assumes that God is using the same moral system and perspective as we are and our moral system and perspective is malleable and changes with time, culture, era, society and mythos.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, since we do not seem to be able to create a moral system all humans of any given era will agree with and adopt I'm not sure how God could even have a "Moral system" that we would recognize.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I see no freewill in your scenario unless we can decide to take the right path and God be wrong.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: So the only way to truly have free will is if God is wrong occasionally? That would of course be the result but what is needed for us to have freewill is for god not to know the future.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Is it logical for the Creator of all seen and unseen to not know the future? Is there any particular reason that we dare imagine a God who not only does not know the future but is essentially amoral? Not personable? Not only is it logical it is supported by the Bible. You may have heard of that book. In some Bible stories the God character does not only not know the future but does not know the present. Also in some Bible stories the God character is certainly not personable, and in fact is aloof, apart and does not interact with any of his creations. And many if not most of the God characters are at best amoral and often down right immoral.
Phat writes: And yet humans are supposed to correct this God when God gets something wrong!! Unbelievable! Again, the Bible says that is what we are supposed to do.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
My scenario includes "making a decision based upon your own personal reasoning abilities." Except you have not shown any way that could even be possible if the decision is already known. You might think it was your own personal reasoning abilities but if the outcome was already foreknown then I see no way your belief could be factual.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LOL
But what can a Christian God belief be based on other than the characters in the book. But if the God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, why would it favor humans over pod scum?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar writes: Because God loves. Why does anyone have a favorite pet? What possible reason could you imagine would make humans "more attractive" than germs? But if the God is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, why would it favor humans over pond scum? Why do people have a favorite pet? I've had and have lots of pets but none have been my favorite. But also I did not create the pets. I cannot imagine any reason that would make humans "more attractive" than germs if both were my creations. But Phat, what does any of this have to do with the topic or are we back to "God is Phat's servant" again?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Jon writes: Are you equally proud of all your accomplishments? Of course. Why would I prefer one accomplishment over another?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I never graded such things but if you do, that's fine.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yes, I have. Again... if I'm not making the choice, who is? You claim you are making a choice but since the outcome is known before you make it you are not making the choice, simply doin' the inevitable. See how easy it is for you to lie to yourself? Edited by jar, : appalin spallinAnyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Did it ever occur to you that "the inevitable" is doing you? Of course not. That does not even have any meaning.
Phat writes: You once asked me to explain communion. Communion is humans freely choosing their destiny in isolated moments of time and being accepted by GOD eternally. And more word salad.
Phat writes: At any given moment in time we are either in communion or out of communion. You may argue that simply by knowing the moment makes the Creator responsible and potentially evil. I would argue that the decision of each moment is ours. Kale salad likely.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I disagree with the idea that we are only expected to try and do our best. So you think we are not expected to try and do our best?
Phat writes: You minimize the idea of getting to know GOD....having decided that such an endeavor is impossible at best. I feel that I am beginning to know Him..though I have a long way to go in this relationship. Again, that is simply not true Phat. You really need to stop misrepresenting what I have decided or know. What I have asked, not just once but repeatedly, is how do you determine what you have a relationship with really is God? So far there has been no explanation.
Phat writes: By the way, you can't simply pick and choose which God you choose to worship. But all of the evidence says that is exactly what people do, they worship the god they create and choose. That is why the God character in Genesis 1 is so different from the God character in Genesis 2&3.
Phat writes: Ultimately, the Creator of all seen and unseen will have His way whether humans call Him evil or not. That is true of all despots. Is such a god worthy of respect much less worship? Should the fact that something can have its way be a criteria for love, respect or worship?
Phat writes: We should be unconcerned with what GOD knows and when GOD knows it. But that happens to be the actual topic of this thread that had died long ago until someone resurrected it.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Utter nonsense.
If god knew before you were created then that god would be evil and you would have no freewill. If god does not know before creating you but does know before you decide what to do then that god is not evil but you still have no freewill. It really is that simple.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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