|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,913 Year: 4,170/9,624 Month: 1,041/974 Week: 368/286 Day: 11/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Earth science curriculum tailored to fit wavering fundamentalists | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
As it happens, all 4 of the family members who are open to learning from me are woman and I can see this "question me until you are satisfied" is a strange new world for them. I don't want them to just believe me - that's no better than what they are coming from. What about "herstories" of women scientists and their works?
Nobel Prize Women in Science: Their Lives, Struggles, and Momentous Discoveries Women in Science: Then and Now Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
Doug Batchelor prominent SDA YEC 'oracle'(LINK) uses the term when talking about Willard Libby and Carbon Dating:
quote: Now the way he uses the term "experimental error" and the way his audience hears that term is TOTALLY different from the way Libby is using the term in his book. When through the curve of knowns he discovered that the earth's ratio was not in equilibrium , he did NOT dismiss it as in "Oh, that's BS and just an error caused by the experiment so I'll ignore it.", though that is how Batchelor means it and that is how the audience hears it. What Libby says is that when this is discovered they didn't worry about it much because it fell *well within* the range of the experimental error rate of the method (+/-10% at the time). Yet there is also a reason that 14C was not in equilibrium in the atmosphere that has since been discovered. This is another example of a first approximation being made to explain how something works. Libby estimated the half-life at 5568 years and he assumed that the rate of 14C generation was constant. Then he finds that 14C hasn't reached a predicted equilibrium level, even though it is close -- there is an anomaly (and the greatest words in science are said ... "that's curious ... ") Then we find that the generation of 14C is NOT constant as had been assumed, but varies widely because the cosmic ray bombardment generator process varies widely with solar activity. This destabilizes the 14C atmospheric levels so that reaching equilibrium is not possible. This variation then affects the accuracy of the dating calculations even though the measurements are very precise. Then we find that the actual half-life is closer to 5730 years, so age calculations need to be adjusted to make them more accurate. Then the variation of 14C with age is determined from tree rings of known ages and we can either back-calculate the original atmosphere levels at the time the rings were formed, or we can just compare the measured 14C levels to those in the tree rings at find the age from the tree rings with matching levels (which has the benefit of incorporating the change to the half-life -- and any future improvement in that value), and it takes the post industrial revolution fossil fuel effect on recent values into account. This then improves the accuracy by reducing the effect on the results from the variations in atmospheric levels. Each step makes the process better and a more accurate measurement of age. btw -- you can model the equilibrium situation by using a bucket with a hole in the bottom. If you fill it with water at a constant rate the level will rise until the outflow rate (proportional to depth) matches the inflow rate. Now turn the tap on and off ... Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
Now the way he uses the term "experimental error" and the way his audience hears that term is TOTALLY different from the way Libby is using the term in his book. When through the curve of knowns he discovered that the earth's ratio was not in equilibrium , he did NOT dismiss it as in "Oh, that's BS and just an error caused by the experiment so I'll ignore it.", though that is how Batchelor means it and that is how the audience hears it. What Libby says is that when this is discovered they didn't worry about it much because it fell *well within* the range of the experimental error rate of the method (+/-10% at the time). If you take 10 pennies and toss them on the table we know that theoretically they land with 5 heads and 5 tails, but we also know that this isn't necessarily the result. What would be a good estimate of the error? If you did 10 such tosses and counted the number of times you got 5/5, 6/4, 7/3, 8/2, 9/1 and 10/0 results, and then calculate what the average error was for each throw. Does this average error mean that you never get 5 heads and 5 tails? How well does the average error predict what a single throw will show? If you distinguish 6 heads and 4 tails from 4 heads and 6 tails (ie record 0/10, 1/9, 2/8, 3/7, 4/6, 5/5, 6/4, 7/3, 8/2, 9/1 and 10/0) you can show that the average result approximates 5 each, with increasing accuracy the more throws you make. You can also experiment to find how many throws it takes to get a good idea of what the average error would be for infinite throws. Then introduce the concept of standard deviation and relate that to the number of throws necessary to get an accurate representation of the average value and the degree of error likely in a single throw. Now you have the ability to report the average and the values between +1σ and -1σ ... and you can ask if results ever fall outside those error bars.
Climate Sanity, Applying Monte Carlo simulation to Sloan’s and Wolfendale’s use of Forbush decrease data And you can note that this is a concept that is prevalent throughout science. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : 5 not 4 tailsby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Fixed thanks. Hate it when that happens.
I was thinking you could also do it with 5 pennies with possible results 0/5, 1/4, 2/3, 3/2, 4/1, and 5/0. In theory you would never get 2.5 heads or 2.5 tails, but that would be the long term average -- and now you can talk about accurate values and precise values.
ac•cu•ra•cy[ak-yer-uh-see] noun, plural ac•cu•ra•cies.
In scientific use Accuracy means your ability to hit the bulls eye of a target. If we take a bow and shoot 200 arrows at a target, and all the arrow locations average out to a bull's eye, then the average result is very accurate, the closer they cluster to the bull's doesn't affect the degree of accuracy, even though there may be significant error in any one shot and there may not even be a single bull's eye in the whole group. There could be a fairly large degree of scatter in the data and still have an accurate overall average result.
pre•ci•sion[pri-sizh-uhn] noun
Again, in scientific usage Precision means the ability to replicate exactly the same results. With our bow and arrow example we now have 200 arrows all clustered very close together, but they may or may not be located near the bull's eye, and their location relative to the bull's eye does not affect the precision. There is very little scatter in this case, so it is highly precise, as the degree of scatter defines the precision. As you can see these terms are not quite the same, and ideally we would like to have a system that is both accurate and precise. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The Reynolds number determines which approximation to the nonlinear fluid dynamics equations should be used. Stoke's Law only applies to low Reynolds number situations. For particles in water, this means a diameter << 1 mm. Your marbles are too big for Stoke's law to apply. Check me to see if I get this right: http://www.engr.uky.edu/~egr101/ml/ML3.pdf (symbols changed for consistency below, bold added)
quote: So NR = 1.0 = ρf*V*D(max)/μ and D(max) = μ/(ρf*V) Because this is the limit for laminar flow we can use the Stokes' equation for V ... Stokes' Law: V = {g*(ρp-ρf)*D^2)/(18*μ)} Where V = velocity, g = gravity, μ = the fluid viscosity, ρp = density of particle, ρf = density of fluid, and D = particle diameter. D(max) = μ/ρf*{g*(ρp-ρf)D(max)^2/(18*μ)} D(max)^3 = 18*μ^2)/{(g*ρf*(ρp-ρf)} D(max) = (18*μ^2)/{g*ρf*(ρp-ρf)}^(1/3) where D(max) = maximum diameter for laminar flow, μ = the fluid viscosity, for water = 0.00089 kg/m*sg = gravity, = 9.8 m/s^2 ρf = density of fluid, for water = 1000 kg/m^3 (by definition at 4°C iirc) ρp = density of particle, for glass = 1922 kg/m^3 So D(max) = {(18*0.00089^2)/(9.8*1000*(1900-1000))}^(1/3)D(max) = 0.00012 meters D(max) = 0.12 mm for glass particles in water. Steel particles would be smaller still. Larger than this diameter would result in turbulent flow which expends kinetic energy to the water in the wake reducing the kinetic energy for the marble so the velocity would be slower than the Stokes' Law (by a factor of 80 for the marble?), ... ie the drag from the turbulent flow slows the particles more than in laminar flow. Now I have to check the corn oil and corn syrup for laminar flow ... after you check my numbers? Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : clrtyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
First I would pose it as a question that disturbs you ...
But I would ask how plant fossils are sorted by different types with grasses being last (did they run uphill?) Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
kbertsche writes: These caves were deposited in limestone, a sedimentary rock with fossils, which would have been laid down in the flood. Then the limestone had to harden. Then the caves had to be dissolved out by the floodwater. Then the stalactites and stalagmites had to form thousands of times faster than their current growth rate implies (I don't know how a flood could accelerate or even cause speleothem growth?!?). I haven't had any time yet to research this one, but I've always felt that it could be a great thing to have in my curriculum simply because limestone caves are SO accessible in this part of the south. Thanks for reminding me to look into those processes. And there are the stalactites that have formed over cave paintings .... by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I know I have mentioned this before, but one of the key things I'm searching for is a way to illustrate the convergence of all this evidence. Try this: One of the main objections to radiometric dating
quote: Joe Meert has posted on this forum in the past, and he has a list of articles regarding creationist claims Creationism Pages by Joe Meert Creationism Pages by Joe Meert Likewise Don Lindsay has a number of articles Evidence This one involves dating a string of cratersAre Radioactive Dating Methods Consistent? quote: Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Do you mean this one Geoscience Research Institute | I think we need more research on that...?
THE IMPACT OF TEKTITES UPON AN ESTIMATED 700,000 YEAR HISTORY OF DEEP-SEA DEPOSITS There is also a previous article by same authorGeoscience Research Institute | I think we need more research on that... ANOMALOUS AGES FOR METEORITE IMPACTS AND TEKTITES by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
I'm spending a lot of time currently learning about fossil sorting and while I find many good descriptions of the fauna side of things, I haven't found a good source on the flora side. First off check these: CH561.1: Ecological zonation -- ecological zone sortingCH561.2: Hydrologic sorting -- hydrological (size) sorting CH561.3: Fossil sorting by fleeing -- sorted by the ability to escape CH561.4: Geological column and the Flood -- combination of the above and these: CH541: Fish in the Flood -- aquatic animals survivedCH542: Plant survival in the Flood -- plants survived Note that fossils are not only sorted in time but sorted in space -- again I recommend Song of the Dodo as an introduction to biogeography (and Wallace) -- and that those spacial relationships change with geological ages (ie when different continents were connected so animals could spread over the land). As in why are marsupial fossils in Australia and South America, and no placental fossils in Australia? How did a flood do that?
It seems to me that if plant fossils are as well sorted as the animals are (and I'm highly confident I'll learn that to be true), that this evidence would be an even simpler nail in the WW Naohic flood than the animal side. Algae first -- including diatoms that are sorted in different layers with different species -- would be your floating plants example ... but we also haveCC250: Plant fossil record -- no plant origin/fossils? quote: Angiosperms are flowering plants, including trees. Monocotyledons are a subset of angiosperms. Embryophytes -- tree of life, green plantsSpermatopsida -- tree of life, seed plants Angiosperms -- tree of life, angiosperms Monocotyledons -- tree of life, monocotyledons Monocotyledons include grasses Poaceae - Wikipedia, Evolutionary History of the Grasses1 | Plant Physiology | Oxford Academic Polypodiopsida -- tree of life, ferns Ferns predate angiosperms and are in earlier layers ... There is a layer below which no flowering plants are in the fossil record. So in a simplistic order, you have algae, ferns, flowering plants, grasses, all sorted by their age of original evolution. Also see
Ferns - Evolution - Plants, Rhyniopsida, Botanists, and Extinct
- JRank Articles
and Cycads - Evolution - Plants, Dominant, Million, and Haploid - JRank Articles and Lycophyte - Wikipedia and Zosterophyll - Wikipedia Even with species living today from ancient groups you can show sorting problems when species living today do not exist in earlier fossil layers -- why do flower fossils not exist in lower layers? why do grasses not exist in lower layers? For a start. You can also google prehistoric extinct plantsList of extinct plants - Wikipedia Enjoy ps -- Free evolution and climate change book downloads! | National Center for Science Education free book downloads Edited by RAZD, : links Edited by RAZD, : moby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
... he handed me a paper called "Dissecting Darwinism" by Joseph A. Kuhn. I told him I would look at it and get back to him. ... Ask him which ONE →(1)← one argument he finds the most convincing: focus on that, with "we can get to the others once we have resolve this one" ... and if he can't decide then say you'll take the first one first. That is usually a good way to get them to started thinking about the support (or lack of it) ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
The consilience/convergence of evidence -- somehow I have to figure out how that principle can be unleashed in their minds. Dawkins answers the question about how we know that evidence is positive for science ... ie what is the evidence that evidence is of value ... and he answers "because it (science) works" and then listed a number of things that "work" -- airplanes, medicine, etc. I would clarify this a little by saying it is reproducible -- that when you design a plane it has to be tested to make sure it operates within design parameters (and new designs need to be modified when necessary to meet those parameters to be a successful design) ... but the acid test is that the design can be reproduced and the reproductions will fly as well as the original. Likewise medicine can be reproduced and cure people the same as the original medicine. Reproducible results is a key component to science and is part of the review process of testing new hypothesis. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
That's right. Kangaroos hopped all the way from the middle east to Australia without any food. How long did that take? ... Kangaroos are fast and eat a variety of vegetation. Koalas are slow, are not great swimmers and only eat eucalyptus leaves. And why did no marsupials stay in the middle east? inquiring minds want to know ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
When I'm writing script for curriculum video, I certainly understand the importance of crediting quotes I use. What to you do in the case of Wikipedia 'quotes'? Sometimes Wikipedia describes something quite well and I might like to just read a paragraph from the entry. I can't exactly credit the author(s) because - well, because it's Wikipedia. The system I use/d for all websites in Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 (see Message 2):
quote: It is important to put the accessed date because websites (especially wiki) can be changed. Another common way to put the access date in brackets: [30JAN07] and I have also done webpages this way when the authorship is unknown: Wikipedia.com, Methuselah, last modified 22 December 2013 , [2013, December 23]: Methuselah (tree) - Wikipedia Likewise Images:
quote: ... and in case the website stops using the image. Wiki does preserve the history of edits, unlike many websites, so date of access can be tracked and verified. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
A couple of small quibbles:
Another way to describe this principle is that it’s based on the ‘unity of knowledge’, meaning that if we measure the same thing several different ways, it should lead to answers that are very similar if not identical. Let’s take the Golden Gate Bridge for instance and measure its length using a laser rangefinder, or satellite ... When several independent methods agree, this is strong evidence that *none* of the methods Example lengths and margins of error would make a nice graphic:
----------------------------------|___X___| (laser rangefinder)
--------------------------------|___X___| (Satellite GPS) --------------------------------------|__X__| (yardstick) ----------------------------------|__|X|_| (two out of three likely, three out of three very likely actual value) Notice how improving the accuracy of any one of these three methods does not significantly affect the consilience of all the methods. Your example
While thinking about how to illustrate this principle, I realized that we use consilience regularly while navigating from place to place in our daily lives. ... and as it turns out, you never even looked to see if the number on the mailbox was indeed 123 — you didn't need to. Waay too long: think of how you would draw it on the whiteboard ... likely with bullet points for the information, then use it as a checklist on first arrival. Good start. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024