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Author | Topic: Should we teach both evolution and religion in school? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Colbard Member (Idle past 3422 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Ringo writes: Show them under the microscope the tiny creatures that make up chalk. Then show them how high the white cliffs of Dover are and let them do the math. The millions of years will be pretty obvious. Or they could have been lumped together in a global flood?
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Colbard Member (Idle past 3422 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Larni writes: Sigh. That would not educate the children. It would reinforce the idea that 'Chairman Mao' can make the Sun come up even when they are at the Great Wall of China. How do you not understand why this is wrong? Silly me.
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Colbard Member (Idle past 3422 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Theodoric writes: Source please. (Mao makes the sun rise)
404 Page not found - friendsoftibet.org
Mao is the sun. Edited by Colbard, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
I think some things like the age of the earth, don't matter when you have to get up for work Monday morning, and there does not have to be a majority consensus on these issues. A majority consensus of whom? The vast majority of the population doesn't have a clue on these issues and they don't get a say in the first place. They have to rely on scientists--you know, those guys who do have a clue--to figure things out for them. Your problem is that you are taking your beliefs from old tribal myths, rather than what the evidence shows. In this you are far behind the vast majority of the population. In this, it is not so much what you don't know, it is what you do know that is flat-out wrong.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Going by modern standards we might as well dispense with religion altogether. OK. Fair enough. You've been a good sport about all this.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9517 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Colbrad writes: Going by modern standards we might as well dispense with religion altogether. That would be as big an error as not teaching evolution. Religion is part of our history and culture and we need to remember the mistakes we made with it and why we made them so that we can understand and live easier alongside others with differing beliefs.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Colbard Member (Idle past 3422 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Coyote writes: The vast majority of the population doesn't have a clue on these issues and they don't get a say in the first place. They have to rely on scientists--you know, those guys who do have a clue--to figure things out for them.Your problem is that you are taking your beliefs from old tribal myths, rather than what the evidence shows. In this you are far behind the vast majority of the population. In this, it is not so much what you don't know, it is what you do know that is flat-out wrong. So an elitist group of scientists reach the unreachable heights of knowledge through scientific method which includes peer reviewing and other intellectual codependent rituals, passing down their treatises to the impoverished vulgate. Then we are supposed teach their enlightened thoughts in school. To quote some of their home hitting truths - "Mars has a history of violence" "The universe will expand then shrink back to nothing" "the universe is filled with dark malevolent forces" "the koalas are wombats that progressed into tree living" "this species of monkeys has offspring with yellow hair so that the parents can find it easily" "Earlier bats used to live on the ground" So what did you say was tribal and mythical? Yes, I must wrong and so contented as well.
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Colbard Member (Idle past 3422 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Tangle writes: That would be as big an error as not teaching evolution. Religion is part of our history and culture and we need to remember the mistakes we made with it and why we made them so that we can understand and live easier alongside others with differing beliefs. I get what you are saying. It is balanced and with best intent, but do you know how creepy both religion and evolution are? And how that both are controlled by spiritually inept men?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9517 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Colbard writes: I get what you are saying. It is balanced and with best intent, but do you know how creepy both religion and evolution are? And how that both are controlled by spiritually inept men? I certainly know how creepy religion is and how it is controlled by inept men. That's why it needs to be taught. Evolution though is just science; no different than any other. No one is in control of it - prove it wrong and you'll get a Nobel prize. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Colbard Member (Idle past 3422 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Yea, I guess whatever is out there will rightfully belong to education. People need to be informed.
Personally, I think there are two sides to science, the good side and the bad side, just like there is in religion. Both are broad subjects. However, I much prefer the scientific method of interpretation than the religious way of doing things. Science cannot afford too many hidden agendas. I believe that there is true religion and true science and that the two are perfectly harmonious. But they are opposite worlds at the moment.
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Personally, I believe that education should be as true as we can practically make it. It should discuss all of the religions, for example.
I believe that there is true religion and true science and that the two are perfectly harmonious. I agree in that I believe that there is one truth---which is what we all may find out once we die--if then. Former EvC members Robin Rohan and Buzsaw may have found out what is really true---then again, maybe they just died and there is no afterlife. I also agree that there is by definition a true science, but what makes you think they are not pursing that now? After all, what hidden agenda or ulterior motive could current science have--if not to further educate and enlighten humanity? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Colbard writes: Ringo writes: Show them under the microscope the tiny creatures that make up chalk. Then show them how high the white cliffs of Dover are and let them do the math. The millions of years will be pretty obvious. Or they could have been lumped together in a global flood? Utter bullshit and idiocy. Please provide a model and method for an flood sorting in that way.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Colbard writes:
We could definitely have the children investigate that possibility. First, take them outside to look at the leaves on the ground (since school conveniently begins in fall). Would they expect all of the leaves to come from one gigantic tree or from the many ordinary-sized trees that they see around them? Or they could have been lumped together in a global flood? Then have them think about whether organisms that are killed by a flood are likely to have been killed by one gigantic flood or by many ordinary-sized floods that they see on the news. I think you'll find that letting children make up their own minds is the last thing that creationists want.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Addressing the title of this thread, isn't the clamor for equal treatment for religious topics such as creationism simply an admission of failure on the part of parents and churches to teach these subjects? No, it is a symptom of fanatic fundamentalists wanting to make the world conform to their narrow beliefs rather than accept reality for what it shows. That this problem only comes up with fanatic fundamentalists (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu) and that the reaction of different sects is different shows that the issue is one of religion and not one of reality or science understanding reality.
Message 405: However, most modern religious organizations have officially recognized Evolution and accepted it as part of their curriculum. That is because they do not consider the Bible as an authority any longer. OR they recognize that belief that is contradicted by the evidence of reality is wrong, and that maintaining that belief in spite of evidence contradicting it is delusional.
Message 403: I think some things like the age of the earth, don't matter when you have to get up for work Monday morning, ... Again I suggest you look at Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 for the evidence that the earth is significantly older than any YEC scenario from a number of different sources that reach the same results: the earth IS very very old.
Message 405: I suppose some OC people would find it irritating that they cannot classify and categorize every thing and test people on it. This phrase doesn't make sense to me. Can we classify and categorize things by age? Usually, by many different methods. Can we test people on the age of the earth? Yes.
Message 403: ... and there does not have to be a majority consensus on these issues. You don't get to vote on facts, you can accept them or be delusional.
Message 406: Or they could have been lumped together in a global flood? Not really: there are different species in different layers and there are thousands of these sorted layers that occur one on top of the other without the jumbling\mixing that would result from a single event. The different shells are basically the same sizes overall, but each layer has different sizes that would be separated out by one settling event. Teaching this simple fact in schools would be an easy to understand argument for age. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Colbard Member (Idle past 3422 days) Posts: 300 From: Australia Joined: |
Phat writes:
Of course the majority of science is headed for practical value, I don't want to elaborate on my opinions about other agendas and education, because it is political, and as you know that is what has a lot of impact in education. I would rather stick to our shared values and ideas.
I also agree that there is by definition a true science, but what makes you think they are not pursing that now? After all, what hidden agenda or ulterior motive could current science have--if not to further educate and enlighten humanity?
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