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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: bombs in Boston ... and now in Texas??? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Not sure what your final answer is, but the quoted paragraph does say that military guys get military style due process which agrees with what I said. quote: That sounds pretty clear and the 5th amendment is the 5th amendment, military or not. See also:
Some other law book writes: The regular civilian court system, both state andfederal, has always had jurisdiction over servicemen who violated the state or federal criminal law,3 and accords them the same due process as it accords a civilian. This article, however, is not concerned with servicemen tried in such civilian courts. (Source second page down) I think that last sentence there is related to the muddy language above. Everywhere I have looked has indicated that servicemen and women receive (or are supposed to under law) teh same due process as civilians.
Looks like even with the Patriot Act and the NDAA (some powers of which were enacted with President Obama's signing statement that he would not use), would require tying the Russian to the Taliban or al-Qaeda. A LOT of people have made the argument that the verbiage is just vague enough that it can be construed any way possible. There have even been hearings, but I see them the same way as the birther hearings.
Can that case be made? NO case can be made yet."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I am almost positive the Patriot Act allows Uncle Sam to label whoever the fuck they want as terrorists in an effort to bypass/forego pesky rights or due process. Nope, not me.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I think that last sentence there is related to the muddy language above. Everywhere I have looked has indicated that servicemen and women receive (or are supposed to under law) teh same due process as civilians. And yet you originally quoted a paragraph that said differently. FWIW, servicemen 'due process' in a criminal context simply no depriving of life and liberty without a fair process. For the purposes of military men and women the exact nature of the process is defined by the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) which affords fewer protections that do civilian court systems. Couple that with the president and Congress' powers during prosecution of an actual war, and you've got something way less than a civilian would ever get.
A LOT of people have made the argument that the verbiage is just vague enough that it can be construed any way possible. We've just looked at the wording. Show me the slippery parts that would apply to a Russian born US citizen with no known ties to anyone listed in the act.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Text of the fifth amendment. Emphasis added by me.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. Note the highlighted exception that applies directly to Bradley Manning but not to the Boston Bombers. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
I just cited two sources that said, very matter of factly and in very plain english, that Military members are afforded the EXACT same 5th amendment rights as civilians. Do you have a source that says otherwise?
We've just looked at the wording. Show me the slippery parts that would apply to a Russian born US citizen with no known ties to anyone listed in the act. If you were to actually look into the Patriot Act, you would see that he IS a terrorist and is subject to the Patriot Act. (see my bolded bits)(I've condensed this section down for clarity) Patriot Act, Article VIII writes: A further amendment made the following activities part of the definition of "International terrorism":[45](snip) the use of plastic explosives [54] (snip)
the bombing of public places and facilities[70] Secondly, we have this:
NDAA section 1021 writes: or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners", Can you define "associated forces? Are you that confident that his religion won't be used as being sufficient "evidence"? Wait, what's that? politicians are ALREADY calling him an enemy comabtant. How's that for justice from those in office? I was thinking we were actually having a nice discussion, but it's obvious you just want me to be wrong without actually doing any homework yourself. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Note the highlighted exception that applies directly to Bradley Manning but not to the Boston Bombers. (hint hint: that part isn't the due process part) Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I took a page from the jar handbook on social introspection.
Phats Facebook This is what I posted:
quote: Now I know you critics will gnash your teeth at my religious outlook, and to be fair...this was quoted from one of the news articles on the Boston suspects:
Associated Press writes: thus it could be argued that religion itself is a cause of many of these conflicts, though I would say that the abuse and manipulation of religion is the real issue. To love and believe in Jesus is of itself not problematic.
The older brother had strong political views about the United States, said Albrecht Ammon, 18, a downstairs-apartment neighbor in Cambridge. Ammon quoted Tsarnaev as saying that the U.S. uses the Bible as "an excuse for invading other countries." |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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So the Texas fertilizer plant explodes, killing 30 and injuring over 200 workers ...
... a "time-bomb" that was waiting to happen due to (a) deregulation (because it interferes with corporate profits), (b) GOP pandering to corporation interests over public interests, and (c) corporate greed that values profits over worker safety. Notice that fertilizer is notoriously explosive, and was a major ingredient in Tim McVeigh's Oklahoma bomb ... SO which is more reprehensible --- Boston or Texas? I say Texas, and that this is the tip of the iceberg of time-bombs created by deregulation and greed. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Sorry....bogus argument.....OFF TOPIC.
- xongsmith, 5.7d
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
that part isn't the due process part No it does not, does it. I've discussed the due process part, partly with references to sources you have provided. Militiary men get due process, but it is not the same process that civilian gets. And besides that, the highlighted part of the Fifth Amendment does explain how Manning can be to answer for a crime without the process a civilian would get (Grand Jury or equivalent). I've also invited you to interpret the acts you've cited in a way to suggest that Dzhokar Tsarnaev can get the same treatment. An invitation you have yet to take up beyond saying some people said anything goes. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 831 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
that part isn't the due process part
No it does not, does it. Huh? How does that even grammatically make sense? My statement was not a does or does not statement.
I've discussed the due process part, partly with references to sources you have provided. I guess it comes down to "no, you haven't".
Militiary men get due process, but it is not the same process that civilian gets. Yes, it is. I showed that. You have not rebutted it.
And besides that, the highlighted part of the Fifth Amendment does explain how Manning can be to answer for a crime without the process a civilian would get (Grand Jury or equivalent). That sentence has four(4!) parts. The part you think supports your argument....doesn't. You see, this part:
quote: is separate from the due process bit via the word NOR, as well as a few other distinctions. You know this. I know you aren't a retarded fucking monkey. Stop acting like one.
I've also invited you to interpret the acts you've cited in a way to suggest that Dzhokar Tsarnaev can get the same treatment. An invitation you have yet to take up beyond saying some people said anything goes. Notice that I replied to you twice. You didn't respond to Message 140. I have, actually, clarified how Dzhokar Tsarnaev will be rightly viewed as a terrorist and subject to the PA. What hasn't happened isn't me failing to do something. It's you. Thank you, though, for turning this from a discussion where I valued your thoughts into an argument where I think you are a moron. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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Phat writes: I know, i know...you seem to be defending the right of other cultures to not be labeled as "them" by us. Hi Phat I appreciate what you're saying and I agree. The problem is though that it cuts both ways. We in the west aren't always just content to see our own culture maintained but are often intent on exporting it to the rest of the world, by whatever means necessary. This only assists the extremists in getting young hot heads with all that testosterone running through their system to believe that evil is actually good. I contend that the only way for any country to truly convert to the ways of democracy and freedom that we enjoy in the west if it is as a result of a broadly based popular movement from within the country, and as it did in the western world it is going to take generations for it to become firmly established. In the west we have a mentality of wanting instant results and and we aren't prepared to wait years let alone generations. Sure there may have been an improvement in the lives of some of the people in Iraq but I really question if the country as a whole is any better off than before all those bombs were dropped all over the place. It sure seems to me that if you fight evil with evil then evil is bound to win. I have no way of proving this but I would bet that the average Iraqi is less pro-western now that he/she was prior to the war.
Phat writes: My point is that "us" can be them too if they would only cooperate and not go against our culture and way of life. In the last couple of days we have had a major attack by terrorists averted in Canada. Here is a perfect example of how we have to be so careful of stereotyping. The alleged attack by a couple of Islamic extremists was prevented in large part because of the Islamic community in Canada.
Planned Terrorist Attack in Canada Here is a portion of that report.
quote: Our first line of defence against Muslim terrorism is normative or moderate Islam. The extremists would like nothing more than to see us marginalize our Islamic citizens. Sure I disagree with much of their theology but there is also a great deal that we have in common and can share that with them. I do agree that it is easy to go into the Qu’ran and find quotes that can be used to encourage violence against people of other faiths. However, it is possible, as it is with the Bible, to get the exact opposite message as well. Here is an excellent Islamic web site that understands the Qu’ran in a way that encourages friendships and communitywith other faiths.
Can Muslims be friends with Jews and Christians? {abe} That link didn't seem to work. Here is the url to cut and paste Can Muslims be friends with Jews and Christians? - IslamiCity I know that we are all basically tribal but hopefully we are all moving, even if it is painfully slowly away from that. The most fundamental Christian message concerning morality, (which is not to say that it is only Christian but I use that as it applies to both Phat and myself), is that the our goal should be that we would all be of one tribe, regardless of belief or non-belief. {abe} I wanted to add this additional article on how it was the Muslims who alerted authorities so that this terrorist act in Canada was thwarted.
Report from Reauters Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Edited by GDR, : problem with linkHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: If we are smart, maybe possibly even wise though, we should look at and understand what motivated them and see if we shouldn't change our behavior. The Meaning Of Boston: Depends On Your Angle, Literally James Carafano of the conservative Heritage Foundation writes:
"Clearly, on almost every aspect of this, all the facts aren't in...To draw broad public policy conclusions based on this when we don't have all the facts is not the best way to serve the public interest....It's difficult to make law by anecdote... It's difficult to use one case to make a trend, or to use one case to create a trend. quote: New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg writes: ... we live in a complex world where you're going to have to have a level of security greater than you did back in the olden days, if you will. And our laws and our interpretation of the Constitution, I think, have to change.
It(these attacks/events) will help Vladimir Putin remove the last vestiges of democracy and free press from his totalitarian Russia without a peep from the U.S. Carafano writes: ... come next week Boston will fade as a point of argument in the immigration debate, at least."Americans are not too excited about people playing politics with tragedy." Perhaps terrorism achieves the goal of confusin political and social agendas, but it seems to me that it also unifies nationalism....something unwise for a foreign enemy to do. Unless of course the strategy is to cause us to overreact and bankrupt our system.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The goal of terrorism is to prompt an overreaction.
The US almost always says "Good idea, let us overreact." But so far I have seen nothing about any foreign involvement in the Boston Bombing incident.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Yes, it is. I showed that. You have not rebutted it. In fact, you posted a paragraph showing that due process for the military can involve different processes than that for civilians. I'll post that paragraph here for convenience (my emphasis added).
quote: You did make some kind response to my pointing this out, but you never addressed the specific phrase, highlighted above, that guts your entire argument.
You see, this part: is separate from the due process bit via the word Yes. I acknowledged that. However the quoted part is still relevant because it provides an explanation for some of the treatment that Manning has received that I would not expect the Boston bomber to receive. As a combat soldier, Manning can be held for extremely long periods of time without an indictment, and as the provision of the Fifth that allows such treatment is separate from due process, there is no point in complaining that such actions violate due process. That provision doesn't apply to Dzhokar.
Thank you, though, for turning this from a discussion where I valued your thoughts into an argument where I think you are a moron. Sure hooah212002. I'm an idiot, but you are just wrong.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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