Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries

I don't think there's a clear consensus among Protestants that salvation is "the point" of Jesus' gospel. As I read the New Testament, salvation is more of a byproduct.

It is true that England became Protestant for some questionable reasons if all you are looking at is Henry the 8th, but nevertheless there have been great British Protestant Reformers and some of the best have taught from the pulpits of the Church of England. Also some of the worst.

And I suppose you have evidence that Roman Catholics see the nature of Salvation differently than Protestants?

You've got two different subjects going here, what Protestants believe and what you get out of the Bible. There's probably not a whole lot of overlap.Protestantism definitely defines itself by salvation by grace through faith in Christ, all the "solas" of the Reformation. Sola Scriptura Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus. If this isn't taught or isn't emphasized in a church you may doubt their adherence to the principles of the Protestant Reformation.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But
Why are you right?

Yes, you are. I asked you for evidence that catholics don't get saved. You don't seem to have it, therefore you don't seem to know. You might believe all you want about you getting saved and catholics not, but that does not make either of those true. What you are basically saying here is that you are a protestant, but that you can't argue why, because you have no evidence that catholics are actually wrong. So I ask you again: How do you know that this is true, and that catholics got it wrong?Edited by Dirk, : clarify

That was pretty much where I (and Rahvin) were coming from. The history of Protestantism (and particularly its relationship with the Catholic Church) isn't completely the heroic picture you rather lyrically painted in the initial post.

Well, Rahvin, I know that point of view about Luther and Hitler is very popular, but it's at least oversimplified. Luther started out wanting to make friends with the Jews, he was no "anti-semite" at that time. He discovered the blasphemies against Christ in the Talmud (born of a prostitute among other things) and went ballistic, being a staunch defender of the honor of His Lord. You can say he overreacted, perhaps, but his overreaction had some cause.As for Hitler, Mein Kampf, "My Struggle," Is actually based on his twisted ideas of Darwin's theory of the "struggle for existence" and survival of the fittest and all that. He did appropriate Luther into his nefarious plot as well, but Hitler was a Catholic all his life and died in the good favor of the Vatican, regarded as a "true son of the church who had been working to further Christianity" or some such notion, and the Vatican had no love for Luther so take it with a grain of salt.

Oh right, jar, the Reformers had NO cause to defect from Rome, right, they can't tell the difference between salvation by faith and salvation by faith-plus-works. Oh I'll try to dig up the evidence for you but maybe we could just ask the Catholics here how they understand one gets saved according to Catholicism.Is faith in Christ's sacrifice enough, all ye Catholics?

It's through God's Grace Faith.But of course, the Bible says that Jesus said salvation is based on your behavior, your works.Edited by jar, : hit wrong key.

I would like to officially state that I will not be defending the past actions that were taken by the Catholic Church. I find much of their history very brutal, although I see it as an attempt to control power, which was done by many different groups at all times throughout history. Also, I would like to point out that we are talking about a much more barbaric time. Executions were witnessed by the masses, people were put to death for many offenses. Not to say it was right, but there is that whole thing about hindsight being 20/20. Okay, so this brings up the points I wanted to make from the Council of Trent. I believe your complaint about the church in this instance is that they declared Protestant beliefs anathema? Well, it is important to think about this "curse" in context. When the church declares someone anathema, this is actually a ritual excommunication. They are not officially damning the Protestants to Hell, as only God has that ability. However, according to Catholics (especially at that time), only Catholics are getting into Heaven, so in this belief structure those who are excommunicated would not get into Heaven.What I would like to ask is, "Do you think that Catholics are going to Hell?" The reason I ask is, if you do, is it because they are not Christian?If your answer to that question is "Yes", then you are doing a similar thing as them and declaring them anathema, or excommunicated from your faith which they do not believe.Why are Protestants angry about being forcefully excommunicated from a religion that they do not wish to be part of? According to your beliefs, Catholics do not have the authority to damn you to Hell, so their anathema is pointless. Just as your thoughts that they are going to Hell are pointless to them. These groups are arguing over some very silly things that should not be argued. You speak as if you are guaranteed to be right. I understand that you have faith, but no one knows for sure. Both of your religions feel that you are the correct one. You claim to be true followers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Catholics claim to have an unbroken chain of papacy from Peter as the rock of the church onward. I get it....you both cannot be right. But how is fighting with one another (which has happened since the reformation from both sides) in any way, shape or form following the gospel of Jesus Christ.If you want to claim your group is right because they follow the gospel of Jesus, shouldn't those who practice it follow all of this gospel? Instead, you link me to information from Ian Paisley, who suggested burning down catholic homes and churches in Ireland (seems to skip the teaching of turn the other cheek, which is directly from the gospels of Jesus). I am sorry, but I would not trust information from such a hate-filled man without researching every single bit of counter information.Likewise, the Catholic claim of direct lineage from Peter is not a guarantee. The records from the time period directly following when Christ supposedly lived are not perfect, who knows what happened. Who would blindly trust the conventional history without research? Remember, the conventional histories used to tell us that Christopher Columbus discovered the Americas. Oops. However, I think that you are completely off the mark when you state that the Catholic Church is out to kill Protestants, and begin a new inquisition. First, the numbers in Catholic Churches are declining just as fast as many other faiths. All one need to do is Google, "Declining Catholic Numbers" to find many articles about how quickly people are leaving the faith, like myself. Catholics do want Protestants to "return to the fold", because according to their doctrine of faith one is only saved by being Catholic. The plan they have is not to be forceful as they were in the past, but rather to continually offer a chance for Protestants to reform, similar to how Protestants would want Catholics to give up their faith and join the Protestant faith.I would love to see some of this evidence for a Catholic waged war that you feel is ongoing. From all that I have read, it seems the Catholic Church has learned the error of its ways, and would like to try a more diplomatic approach to make you rescind your beliefs. If they have faith they are right, why is this the wrong thing for them to do? Would you not do the same thing to a Catholic friend that you had faith would not be saved due to his erroneous faith?

I think "On the Jews and Their Lies" was a bit more than an "overreaction." Whatever he may or may not have been at one point in his life, he was definitely anti-semitic when he wrote that. Sufficiently anti-semitic to be used as an easy inspiration for Hitler. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone more anti-semitic. Your minimization of his racism isn't particularly persuasive. When I get home (I don't like accessing hate speech at work) I can dig up some quotes for everyone to judge for themselves. Of course, this is an inaccurate portrayal of evolution. Woefully inaccurate. Evolution is not about "survival of the fittest;" it's about "survival of the fit enough, with increased propagation of heritable traits carried by those individuals that survive to reproduce and decreased frequency among traits carried by those who do not."It's not a ladder, like "supremacists" would like to portray. It's a giant, branching tree of variety that constantly changes as environments change. On these points you'll find no argument from me, though I'm somewhat surprised - most Creationists try to pass Hitler off as an Atheist and deny his Catholic roots.I'm

So you're using the No True Protestant approach? Anybody who disagrees with your premise isn't a "real" Protestant, so he doesn't refute your premise? I guess you win automatically.

This is a question I have always had for Protestants and perhaps you can finally help me.What is wrong with the idea of Faith plus Works? (which you are correct, is the Catholic view)
How is the concept of believing, but also showing that belief by living your life in a Christ-like manner, i.e., giving to the poor, feeding those who need it, treating people with respect, etc..., considered a bad thing? I find that of my Catholic traits I still have, the last one I want to lose is my willingness to get out and show love and support for my fellow humans. Creating a better world at the same time. Why is it that Protestants do not want their congregations to show the same love they show to Christ to the rest of the World?

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Well, Rahvin, I know that point of view about Luther and Hitler is very popular, but it's at least oversimplified. Luther started out wanting to make friends with the Jews, he was no "anti-semite" at that time. He discovered the blasphemies against Christ in the Talmud (born of a prostitute among other things) and went ballistic, being a staunch defender of the honor of His Lord. You can say he overreacted, perhaps, but his overreaction had some cause.

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He was also rather upset that they wouldn't convert and join his church, as he expected. (I would add that it is not entirely clear who the Talmudic passages are talking about.)

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As for Hitler, Mein Kampf, "My Struggle," Is actually based on his twisted ideas of Darwin's theory of the "struggle for existence" and survival of the fittest and all that.

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That sounds very unlikely.. From what I've read the original title was rather longer and meant "Four and a Half Years of Struggle against Lies, Stupidity and Cowardice." Do you have anything other than the title to support your claim ? Especially as Hitlers ideas on race (excepting the anti-semitism) are derived from Gobineau, who published a few years before Darwin's Origin.

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... Hitler was a Catholic all his life and died in the good favor of the Vatican, regarded as a "true son of the church who had been working to further Christianity" or some such notion, and the Vatican had no love for Luther so take it with a grain of salt.

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Hitler was nominally Catholic, but his relations with the Church seem to be somewhat ambiguous (to say the least). (And I would add that it's quite likely that the Catholic Churches feelings on him were mixed, too). And we should also consider that it's very likely that many of his public statements were more aimed at gathering support from the largely Christian Germany than reflecting his real beliefs. He was a politician, after all.