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Author
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Topic: Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 8 of 1000 (681983)
11-29-2012 11:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
11-28-2012 3:04 PM
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Faith writes: God then raised up a number of men in one generation from within the ranks of Roman Catholicism who saw Rome's errors by the light of the Bible and finally saw it as in essence not merely rife with errors in need of moral reformation, but doctrinally opposed to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
And every generation thereafter has seen mini-reformations, each trying to correct the "errors" of the previous reformation. You can edit forever without every reaching absolute correctness - and of course many of the edits wind up needing to be un-edited.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Faith, posted 11-28-2012 3:04 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by Faith, posted 11-29-2012 11:40 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 16 of 1000 (681991)
11-29-2012 12:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
11-29-2012 11:40 AM
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Re: Giant sized error
Faith writes: Perfect correctness isn't the point, the ultimate point is the nature of salvation, the gospel itself, that's THE dividing line between Romanism and Protestantism.
I don't think there's a clear consensus among Protestants that salvation is "the point" of Jesus' gospel. As I read the New Testament, salvation is more of a byproduct.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Faith, posted 11-29-2012 11:40 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 19 by Faith, posted 11-29-2012 12:45 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 28 of 1000 (682008)
11-29-2012 1:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
11-29-2012 12:45 PM
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Re: Giant sized error
Faith writes: Protestantism definitely defines itself by salvation by grace through faith in Christ, all the "solas" of the Reformation. Sola Scriptura Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus. If this isn't taught or isn't emphasized in a church you may doubt their adherence to the principles of the Protestant Reformation.
So you're using the No True Protestant approach? Anybody who disagrees with your premise isn't a "real" Protestant, so he doesn't refute your premise? I guess you win automatically.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Faith, posted 11-29-2012 12:45 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 44 of 1000 (682031)
11-29-2012 3:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
11-29-2012 3:16 PM
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Re: Let's ask the Catholics about Salvation
Faith writes: BUT, also WORKS FOLLOW FAITH, are the evidence of faith, and cannot be done in the Spirit of Christ without saving faith.
The problem with that hypothesis is that non-Christians can do the exact same works. It is by grace (essentially by God's whim) that we can be "saved" from whatever we need saving from - but God's whim seems to be based on the works we do. The faith that some Protestants over-emphasize so much should be faith in the message, not the messenger. And the message is, "Do the works."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Faith, posted 11-29-2012 3:16 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by Faith, posted 11-29-2012 3:52 PM | | ringo has replied | | | Message 46 by Theodoric, posted 11-29-2012 3:57 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 107 of 1000 (682346)
12-01-2012 1:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
11-30-2012 12:46 PM
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Re: Let's ask the Catholics about Salvation
Faith writes: But believe WHAT? Belief that God exists won't save you. As scripture says even the demons believe that much. WHAT you believe is what matters.
That's what I always say but it doesn't seem to get through to the faith-only people. What you believe is evidenced by what you do. Hence, the works are necessary. The belief in God - especially one narrow conception of God - is not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by Faith, posted 11-30-2012 12:46 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 457 of 1000 (725757)
05-01-2014 12:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 454 by Faith
05-01-2014 3:38 AM
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Re: Pietism and the Golden Age myth
Faith writes: ... the Jesuits were known by many in history as the most evil organization on the planet....
Only until Disney and Walmart.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 454 by Faith, posted 05-01-2014 3:38 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 458 of 1000 (725758)
05-01-2014 12:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
11-29-2012 3:52 PM
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Re: Let's ask the Catholics about Salvation
Faith writes: Works won't save anybody, according to the Protestant Reformers. That's how they understood the message of the gospel and that's how I understand it. You can of course agree with Rome or any of the other works-based religions if you prefer.
I agree with the fictional character Jesus.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Faith, posted 11-29-2012 3:52 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 500 of 1000 (725902)
05-03-2014 12:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 499 by Faith
05-03-2014 8:37 AM
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Re: Almost Speechless
Faith writes: ... I don't ASSOCIATE IT WITH SCRIPTURE...
That's because you don't associate with scripture at all. You associate with the perverted misrepresentation of scripture that you've been spoon-fed.
Faith writes: ... when Archer used it as he did it simply rang no bells whatever with respect to scripture.
At the very least, it should have rung the Greek bell.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 499 by Faith, posted 05-03-2014 8:37 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 534 of 1000 (726776)
05-12-2014 11:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 532 by Faith
05-12-2014 10:05 AM
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Faith writes: ... it's about salvation if you are asking what a Christian IS....
Salvation is about what a Christian gets, not what he/she "is". By your logic, a plumber is somebody who gets $150 an hour. A plumber is somebody who does plumbing. A Christian is somebody who does Christianity.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 532 by Faith, posted 05-12-2014 10:05 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 535 by Faith, posted 05-12-2014 2:56 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 539 of 1000 (726839)
05-13-2014 11:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 535 by Faith
05-12-2014 2:56 PM
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Faith writes: No, a Christian is a sinner who is saved by grace through faith in Christ.
And what does it mean to have "faith in Christ"? Does it mean saying, "Lord! Lord!" or does it mean doing what He wanted us to do? You can profess your faith all you want but unless you live it, it isn't real. Fake faith is worse than no faith. Faith without profession is still faith.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 535 by Faith, posted 05-12-2014 2:56 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 540 by Faith, posted 05-13-2014 12:06 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 541 of 1000 (726849)
05-13-2014 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 540 by Faith
05-13-2014 12:06 PM
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Faith writes: I'm talking about the reality, which is between you and God and I mean the faith that saves, faith that His death on the cross paid for my sins and that I now belong to Him.
I know that's what you mean. I'm just pointing out that it's in your head, not in what Jesus taught.
Faith writes: Of course works follow, but the point is that they do FOLLOW....
Often they don't though. That's the problem with get-out-of-hell-free Christianity.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 540 by Faith, posted 05-13-2014 12:06 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 542 by Faith, posted 05-13-2014 12:18 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 543 of 1000 (726853)
05-13-2014 12:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 542 by Faith
05-13-2014 12:18 PM
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Faith writes: Repent and believe, said Jesus.
So we come full circle: What does it mean to repent and believe? Does repentence mean saying, "I repent!" or does it mean stopping doing what you were doing? Does belief mean saying, "I believe!" or does it mean doing what He wanted us to do?
Faith writes: But it's necessary to KNOW that your salvation is a matter of faith alone so you won't have the wrong idea that you can earn your way to heaven.
I didn't say anything about "earning your way to heaven". Jesus said that those who care for the least of His brothers go to heaven and those who don't don't. It isn't about earning anything; it's a prescribed consequence.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 542 by Faith, posted 05-13-2014 12:18 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 544 by Faith, posted 05-13-2014 12:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 545 of 1000 (726856)
05-13-2014 12:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 544 by Faith
05-13-2014 12:32 PM
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Faith writes: Do you or do you not believe He died for your sins, do you or do you not believe that He rose from the dead, do you or do you not believe that He is God Himself incarnate as a man?
Catholics believe all that.
Faith writes: I'm just emphasizing that belief is an interior state, like repentance/abe, it's something only YOU can know. That's the nature of belief.
On the contrary, "by their fruits ye shall know them."
Faith writes: Caring for the least of His brothers and all the other deeds by which we will be judged are BASED on faith in His death for us, and if we have that faith then the deeds will follow.
So if the deeds don't follow the faith isn't genuine, which is what I've been saying.
Faith writes: But people who do good things without that faith are not saved.
People who do good thngs do have the necesary faith, whether they express that faith the same way as you do or not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 544 by Faith, posted 05-13-2014 12:32 PM | | Faith has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 556 of 1000 (726988)
05-14-2014 11:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 546 by Faith
05-13-2014 1:37 PM
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Faith writes: Believing something in an intellectual way isn't saving faith.
And believing something "wtih all your heart" isn't saving faith either. Real faith is blood, sweat and tears.
Faith writes: But as a matter of fact you are wrong about the context of that quote. It's not meant for Christians to judge each other, it's specific to identifying false teachers:
 Context, you say?
quote:
Matthew 7:20-21 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Jesus was talking specificlly about getting into heaven - by doing the will of His father.
Faith writes: ringo writes: So if the deeds don't follow the faith isn't genuine, which is what I've been saying.
Yeah, but beware of thinking YOU can judge that about a person.
You really don't own a mirror, do you? I'm not the one who is judging anybody in this thread.
Faith writes: ringo writes: People who do good thngs do have the necesary faith, whether they express that faith the same way as you do or not.
Not according to scripture.
I already quoted it once; here it is again:
quote:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Faith writes: If you think your good deeds without conscious and specific faith in Christ put you in good stead with God you are badly deceived.
Maybe three times is a charm:
quote:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 546 by Faith, posted 05-13-2014 1:37 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 558 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2014 1:32 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 560 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 7:41 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 557 of 1000 (726989)
05-14-2014 11:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 552 by NoNukes
05-14-2014 9:55 AM
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NoNukes writes: ringo writes: People who do good thngs do have the necesary faith, whether they express that faith the same way as you do or not.
In essence you are arguing that the converse of a true premise must also true.
Not at all. I'm not saying anything "must" be true. I'm just saying that in this specific case, it is. Since the "faith" refered to here manifests as good deeds, the good deeds are evidence of that faith, regardless of motive. If there's only one entrance to the room, anybody in the room came in thorugh that entrance.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 552 by NoNukes, posted 05-14-2014 9:55 AM | | NoNukes has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 561 by Faith, posted 05-14-2014 7:51 PM | | ringo has replied |
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