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Author | Topic: Born Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jaywill writes:
I am afraid that in the weakness of your case you have fallen back on a vague complaint that ANY supporting passages I use in this discussion on being born anew, is out of context quote mining.
Exactly. Anytime that you take a single verse as a quote it is nothing but quote mining. It really is that simple. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jaywill writes: Quoting John 3:16 is taking that verse out of context. It depends on what point the quoter is trying to MAKE. How in the world can you make a generalization that quoting a particular passage is doing so out of context ? Quoting "To be or not to be" - is quoting Hamlet out of context. That depends on how the quoter is using the quotation and what he is trying to establish by reference to it. Sorry but yes, that is quote mining. It is unlikely you will ever present any quote from the Bible (including several other Canons than the Western Protestant Canon) that I have not read in context. The issue is that you have a point to make instead of looking at what the Bible actually says. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jaywill writes: Exactly. Anytime that you take a single verse as a quote it is nothing but quote mining. That is a ridiculous blanket statement and bad generalization. So you want a RULE here that no single passages can be quoted ? What do you suppose that is going to do for you ? Do you think that will give your views more traction ? Too funny. My views will be supported or fall based on the reasoning, without resorting to quote mining. I let the readers decide. You are free to quote mine all you want. I do not want to prohibit you from posting most anything. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jaywill writes: Too funny. My views will be supported or fall based on the reasoning, without resorting to quote mining. I let the readers decide. You are free to quote mine all you want. I do not want to prohibit you from posting most anything.
You're too good to me jar. Thanks for the permission. By the way, WHY did you quote the Nicene Creed if quote mining is taboo ?
Ah, maybe a learning experience. Notice that I quoted the whole creed, not just one line from it. That is an example of quoting in context. For example, if you quoted all of the Sheep and Goats parable from Matthew 25, it would be an example of quoting in context. However if I posted "41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." it would be an example of quote mining. It is not quoting that is bad, it is pulling a verse here and a verse there as support for a position. It is the old and still silly idea that the Bible interprets the Bible. The issue is that almost anything can be supported through quote mining and so it is valueless. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jaywill writes: It is unlikely you will ever present any quote from the Bible (including several other Canons than the Western Protestant Canon) that I have not read in context. That has an impressive sound to it. While you're at it would you please show me why my reference to Matthew 28:18 as I used it was taking it out of context? Here's your chance.
The issue is that you have a point to make instead of looking at what the Bible actually says. I asked for TWO strong examples of my out of context quote mining. You gave ONE specific to me, which you CANNOT back up as an improper reference to a passage in an out of context manner. You can't do it. Certainly. Glad to. Taking one verse from:
quote: is taking it out of context. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
They place verse 18 in context.
The passage from Matthew 28 (whoever wrote it) is a continuing example of the evolution of the Great Commission by the folk who wrote the different Gospels, and is actually an interesting subject. I'll repeat what I have posted on the subject in the past.
quote: The story changed and evolved over time as different writers took put their words and positions into the story. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Whatever.
Yes, the author of John was a revisionist, trying out a new marketing ploy. Maybe YOU can't fulfill the Great Commission as outlined by the writer of Matthew, but I believe I have been charged to try and will be judged on how well I perform. Salvation is something else entirely, a perk added to make the sale easier by the writer of John it seems and it is silly to look to John without looking at the context of how the story evolved over time and from writer to writer. The point is that when you look, for example, at the Great Commission, the earliest version as found in Matthew only talks about what people need to do, the charge, to feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick and injured, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, teach the children. There is no reward offered, no payment, it is a charge. But over time that message got softened, incentives were added and the work part minimized. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is practicing Christianity and Judaism mutually exclusive?
You do understand that Jesus was a Jew? You do understand that most of the Christian Feast Days and Holy Days are simply co-opted Judaic Feast days? And of course the author of John was writing as a revisionist. That is why it is considered as not one of the synoptic gospels. You even admit that when you posted "John recovers the vital truth that Christ is the Source." The author of John was trying to present a different view, a revised view; a revisionist. The whole emphasis, structure and preplanned format in John is different than in any of the other Gospels. There really isn't something I know of that I'd call Episcopalianism, beyond a few very general basics. The rest of your post comes across as just word salad and
quote: seems to me to be exactly the error that Jesus followers are making and that gets them sent off as Goats in the Sheep and Goats parable.
jay writes: Or what is the name of this Creedal Statement ?How did the the writers of this creedal statement arrive at these concise summaries ? Seriously? That is the Nicene Creed. It was developed as so many creeds, to be a consensus statement that could be accepted by a group but still exclude certain factions for political and theological reasons. Remember, when this was written there was no Bible at all; there was not yet any Christian Canons.
jay writes: 1.) One God ? Is that in the Bible ? 2.) One Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten ? How did they arrive at that understanding ? Do you know what furnishes the ground for these two creedal beliefs ? The idea that there is but one God can be seen evolving slowly throughout the Bible. In most of the Bible there are many Gods. The second issue is what is generally called an identity statement, and was meant to differentiate Christianity from Judaism. They arrived at the statements through argument, discourse, discord, and compromise. The goal was to get a statement that people could say, "It's not what I want but I can live with that." Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It's fine if you hold those beliefs.
I personally find them weak, pitiful and valueless, but if they do for you then fine. You seem to think that being born again is some one time event caused by some outside magical force. I believe that being born again is a minute by minute, day by day, year by year task that each of us must do and that it is only our behavior that can show that effort. In the end, I doubt what anyone believes about God or Jesus will really have much if any value. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
jay writes: Don't blame me for quote mining. Rather take these words of Jesus to God in prayer concerning your own eternal destiny. Yawn. Sorry Charlie but no thanks. Belief is not something of value unless it is expressed through behavior. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
More utter nonsense.
jay writes: But behavior is never a good excuse to reject Christ. Sorry but that is both irrelevant and silly. No one mentioned rejecting Christ, I just don't see where it is necessary to accept Christ in the first place. I imagine that there will be far more Atheists, Agnostics, Jews. Muslims, Buddhists, Satanist, Animists, Wiccans, Hindus and Taoists in heaven than Christians. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Good thing I never claimed to be better than anyone then isn't it.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So you see it. I see it as a simple statement of fact.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: I don't think that born again is some magical mantra i do believe that a person with an inner glow will cheerfully DO more for othersbut that doing is itself unrelated to fulfilling any christian merit badge needed to become a saint. To abide in Christ and accept His Spirit means to allow the living Christ to commune with you. In so doing, you will cheerfully DO more for others. Oh good grief. How exactly do you commune with the "living Christ"? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: quote:None of us like it. It isnt fair. We work harder for less. Watch while they pull out the nukes and end this competition. It may well be that the so called enlightened saved flock will be the evil wolves...when faced with losing much of what we have to the rest of the world while the rich fiddle. When Jesus says take up the cross and follow me, did you miss the part about there being sacrifices? Did you think he was preaching about a parade? The most destructive teachings that should be placed at the feet of Christianity are the "Born Again", "Are you Saved" and "Second Coming" teachings as marketed by so much of particularly US based Evangelical, Fundamental and Charismatic Christians. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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