Born Again

Exactly. The theme of rebirth/renewal/revival is nothing new. Well, He did say, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" (John 3:10) If Nicodemus had understood his Judaism, he would have understood what Jesus meant, that He wasn't inventing something new outside of Judaism.

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"I'm Rory Bellows, I tell you! And I got a lot of corroborating evidence... over here... by the throttle!"

I'd be inclined to say the opposite. The concept of renewal/rebirth gives you an opportunity to fix your screw-ups on an ongoing basis. What you failed to do today, you can be pardoned for tomorrow. (You do have to make an attempt at repentence, of course.)

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

You're not supposed to say anything. You're supposed to be less selfish and more loving. That's why regeneration has to be perpetual. You fail one day but you succeed the next. If your sin is not being generous enough, the only way to repent is to be more generous.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

If you want fish, go out and catch fish. Don't wait for God to drop them in your lap.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

You didn't say anything that required refutation. (See my signature.)I was just suggesting that "Wish harder" isn't necessarily the best advice.Edited by ringo, : Adjusted punctuation.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

The only thing I've attacked is empty words, as Jesus did:

quote:

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Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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When He spoke to Nicodemus about being "born again", He said:

quote:

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Joh 3:10 Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

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He was clearly telling Nicodemus to "be more Jewish", to be reborn in the Jewish sense, not by asking God to do it for him but to make an effort to do it himself.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

Think of it as contributing to his self-esteem, allowing him the dignity of deciding for himself how to spend the money.Ultimately, he's the one who has to decide whether to use drugs or not. By withholding money, all you're doing is motivating him to use more desperate means - e.g. crime - to get them.When you give him money, you're also giving him responsibility.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

Why did Jesus ask Nicodemus, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" (John 3:10) if He wasn't talking about the Jewish idea of rebirth/renewal/regeneration?

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

But the revelation from God wasn't something spooky that required a decoder ring. The Old Testament prophets weren't telling the people anything they couldn't figure out for themselves. The Assyrians are coming? No surprises there.The Old Testament prophets telling the people over and over again to get right with God seems to affirm that renewal/revival/rebirth is an ongoing process, not a one-time thing.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

It's an argument that your rant doesn't address. Let's try again:Jesus said that Nicodemus should know what "born again" means, since he was a Jewish leader. The Old Testament prophets had to help renew the children of Israel multiple times. So Jesus seems to be suggesting an ongoing revival/regeneration.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

All your rant did was berate me for asking the question. Here it is again: How is the Old Testament not an example of ongoing renewal?

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

You're the one who brought it up as if it supported your position. Jesus told him that he didn't need a new teaching, that as a Jewish leader, he ought to already know what being born again meant. The question isn't whether we need to be reborn into the "life of God". It's how many times.Paul's letter to the Ephesians confirms that their conversion to Christianity wasn't a magic bullet that killed their old ways for all time. They needed repeated reminders just like those given by the Old Testament prophets.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

That was in response to your Message 74, where you said:

quote:

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This strikes me as Jesus saying the He and John the Baptist and the prophets are the genuine teachers of Israel. They are speak according to the revelation of God.

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You brought up the Old Testament prophets. You're using idle speculation to try to prop up a very weak doctrine. And when Nicodemus asked if he could enter again into his mother's womb, Jesus made it plain that it was not a literal rebirth that He was talking about but one that a master of Israel ought to know about already, an Old Testament rebirth requiring constant reminders to re-examine your life. Bingo. That's what the "born again" metaphor refers to, continuing growth, not just the start of continuing growth.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

I have BEEN regenerated physically by my lunch. Lunch is part of my past but I'm expecting it to be a recurring part of my future too. Jesus Himself refered Nicodemus to the teachings of Judaism, in which renewal/rebirth/regeneration is an important theme. So yes, He suggested quite plainly that the children of Israel had been doing it for centuries before His advent. Maybe you need to rethink your position on what being "born of the spirit" means.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

This is Bible Study, not Jaywill's Assertion. The question before you is: Why did Jesus refer Nicodemus to Jewish teachings to explain what "born again" means?Nothing you have referenced has indicated a one-time magical transformation from outside.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate