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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi greentwiga, thanks for adding another creationist hoax to the list:
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this hoax that scientists perpetuated on Christians (quite effectively, I might add.) Loading... This is about the missing day and hours mentioned in the OT. As noted by others you have the perp wrong: he was a creationist, not a scientist.
quote: This is typical of creationist hoaxes: attribute information to somebody else, and claim you don't need to show the evidence, you just need to believe. See CE010: Missing dayPRATT CE010: quote: Note that even AIG recognizes that this is a hoax (but don't say who the perp is, just that creationists should not use this argument as evidence of creationism):
quote: Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : added aig by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks greentwiga, we all make mistakes (I'm guilty as well).
We also have this addition now from wirkkalaj in Message 99 on 101 evidences for a young age...:
And yet none of the dragons or other depictions really look like an actual dinosaur. Please look again - closely - at the depictions you have posted and see if they accurately portray known dinosaurs. This one is obvious, of course you'll probably just call it a hoax.
Yes it is. The problem is that the picture is altered in the creationist "source": http://s8int.com/dinolit1.htmlhttp://s8int.com/meso-cylinder.html quote: Look at the "s8int" blow up of the head again: Note (a) that the head is out of scale to the body in the seal compared to the dinosaur, and (b) what is apparently shown is a bare bone skull -- no flesh, no eyes, etc. -- complete with holes in the bones through the head, and (c) that the shape is still wrong. What this would have proven - at best - is that the ancient people could have found fossil bones and assembled them but could not have a clue to what a living head looked like, however it doesn't end there: that would be just misrepresentation or misunderstanding, not really a hoax or a fraud. But that is only part of the story ... from:404 One of the markers of a creationist hoax\fraud is that the references are not complete enough to follow up on, and there is no direct link to the actual evidence. I looked at all the search results for "seal" (129) "dinosaur" (none) and "mesopotamia" (146) and finally found it:
quote: Curiously, the heads are more distinct here, showing eyes and ears and lion like snouts. The picture on "s8int" has been altered, it is a forgery, a hoax, a fraud -- a lie. And another creationist website has been shown to be willingly dishonest and deceitful. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : /qs Edited by RAZD, : pic by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
On Message 207 Archangel says:
Since you asked for evidence here, here is where I'll place it. A complete thread isn't needed to debate what is overwhelming evidence of major frauds which have contributed to the acceptance of this false science and even gave it legitimacy where none was deserved. But by the time the frauds were discovered, and the retractions were quietly placed on back pages compared to the fraudulent discoveries releases which were widely disseminated, the damage was done since millions upon millions of people heard about the fraudulent evidence on the evening news everywhere; where as 12 laymen saw the retractions on the back page of the scientific journal that laymen never read. Challenge me on this point and I will give details if you like. Evolution Fraud and Myths Do we finally get a creationist ready and willing to defend the creationist frauds and hoaxes? Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • • |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
in EVOLUTION'S FRAUD HAS CONTRIBUTED TO ITS PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE: Archangel cites this website:
Evolution Fraud and Myths Aside from the usual Piltdown Man and Nebraska Man, this site adds
Orce man: Found in the southern Spanish town of Orce in 1982, and hailed as the oldest fossilized human remains ever found in Europe. One year later officials admitted the skull fragment was not human but probably came from a 4 month old donkey. Scientists had said the skull belonged to a 17 year old man who lived 900,000 to 1.6 million years ago, and even had very detail drawings done to represent what he would have looked like. (source: "Skull fragment may not be human", Knoxville News-Sentinel, 1983) CC021: Orce Man
quote: This site ALSO claims that Java Man and Neanderthal are frauds? There must be some massive bliss going on there. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : tid# by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • • |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks to Kaichos Man for bringing this to my attention:
The Fossil Record -- using information from 1978 science and 1988 creationists to misrepresent the truth about forams to the gullible. See Transitional Fossils Show Evolution in Process Message 40 Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • • |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Velky Vezir, and welcome to the fray.
- Paul Kammerer, who allegedly manufactured nuptial pads on the feet of midwife toads - Reiner Protsch, who falsified and manipulated dating of human fossils - Viswat Jit Gupta, Indian professor, who also falsified some fossils - Charles Darwin, who retouched photographs of human and ape's facial expressions Interesting list.
I think, that Kammerer's case is not so clear and maybe it was not his fraud or perhaps it was not any fraud after all (Science 2.0 | The world's best scientists, the Internet's smartest readers.) To bad he didn't live to see validation.
Protsch - OK, fraud Got any links for that? Also for his purpose in so doing?
Gupta - don't know any details Darwin - don't know what is supposed to be fradulent in this case Perhaps someone else here knows. Enjoy.
... as you are new here, some posting tips: type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote: also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window. For other formatting tips see Posting Tips If you use the message reply buttons (there's one at the bottom right of each message): ... your message is linked to the one you are replying to (adds clarity). You can also look at the way a post is formatted with the "peek" button next to it. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Panda,
Ignoring whether these are frauds or not, what is the relevance? That this is a tread devoted to listing both scientific and creationist frauds. See Message 1. To qualify it only needs to be shown that it was done on purpose: the intent was to deceive.
IMHO, it just proves that humans can be dishonest. And some are dishonest in a way that gets them money or fame. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
This site has not been listed on this thread before, but it has been used (attempted anyway) on a number of other threads.
Scientific Evidence for Creation Home page As an example of the false information they present I have looked at this common creationist falsehood: http://www.bible.ca/...-fraud-horse-fetal-vestigial-toes.gif
quote: Of course that "critical function" was not the original support function of the toes, so yes they are vestigial, and this secondary adapted function is why they have not disappeared. Vestigial Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
quote: Notice that it does not say the vestigial trait has no function (the creationist straw man), just that the size and function are reduced. The development of an organism from fetus to adult is also very instructive in determining the vestigial character of a specific trait. Amusingly you can see that the fetus has three toes (of the original five, two having disappeared in earlier evolutionary stages (that are easily linked to this by fossils) with the central one elongated slightly more than the other two) forming a three toed foot, and that these toes become reduced and redirected during development until the two side ones become splints in the final foot. Finally the function served by these remaining toes is not necessarily a benefit:Page not found - Suite 101 quote: Looks like that "Evolutionist argument rebutted" falls flat on it's face. They are vestigial rather than totally gone because they now serve a secondary function, and that poorly, because it is not their original purpose. This is what vestigial means. The splints are vestigial toes that serve no support function - their original function - for the modern horse. You may enjoy taking apart the other falsehood and fraudulent information on that site, but there are just too many (Gish Gallop?) to answer all of them at one time. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack
Here's the definition of vestigial taken from my evolution course: Thanks, that's a pretty good definition.
If the toes perform an adaptive function (which I'm not convinced they do) then they are not vestigial. If they have been adapted (by evolution) to serve a non-toe function, then they no longer serve as toes. That would be a case of adaptive evolution rather than vestigial remnant. In this case we have splints along the sides of the main toe bones, and I would venture to predict that they are of varying degrees of thickness and length. Certainly when these splint bones have problems it adversely affects the horse, which like the appendix in humans, would not cause that effect by their absence. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi jar,
So it appears that the old toe bones in today's horse still serve some function BUT are an even better example of evolution in action; they are an example of transitional features that are always claimed to be missing. Interestingly we also see polydactylous horses and horses with atavistic polydactyly. http://bill.srnr.arizona.edu/...te%20Evolution/3ToeHorse.htm
quote: Bold for emphasis. The atavistic hoofed toe is (rather obviously) a pale vestige of when the toe supplied direct support to the (evolving) horse. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Portillo,
Haeckels embryos is a picture that was altered in order to prove embryonic recapitulation. Yep. And? Haeckel's Embryos
quote: More from the link above. Note the image is actual photos of actual embryos during development, and they show how some elements are inherited, just not all. So the fact that Haeckel committed fraud does not alter reality, and the evidence of evolution. Note further that the fraud was uncovered by scientists, not creationists. Any questions? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Panda
Portillo is correct to list it as a scientific fraud. Yep, and I agreed that it was a fraud. Problem? He also listed information showing asserting that this fraud was still being perpetuated, which is not entirely correct - the drawings have been used, but the discussion around them is not that his hypothesis was correct, but how it has been corrected. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi caffeine,
... but it's not at all clear that it's true. And they aren't shockingly inaccurate. The picture below is taken from Josh Rosensau on scienceblogs). Thanks. So it could have been his conviction that he was right influencing what he saw, rather than outright fraud. Interesting. However, this does not change the fact that his hypothesis was wrong and has been corrected by later science. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Portillo,
Do Haeckels embryos still appear in high school science textbooks? They do still appear in some textbooks, however when they are used it is to discuss what embryology does and does not show. As caffeine has pointed out, they are not that inaccurate in what they show, the inaccuracy was the hypothesis, which has been invalidated - not ALL stages of phylogenic history are repeated, just some, and different histories are retained in different branches of descent. Other textbooks, like the one by Ken Miller and Joe Levine (5th edition) do not - they use drawings based on actual photos: Haeckel's Embryos
quote: This says more about how textbooks are developed by publishers - do they spend money on new photos or do they use existing material? - and how textbooks are selected by schools (cost & convenience vs accuracy) than about how the actual science is done. But also please note that this thread is not for discussion of the different frauds, but to list them. If there is some doubt about this actually being an intentional fraud by Haeckel, then I am willing to list it on the evolution side, fraud does happen in science, however I also note how much it is overbalanced by frauds on the creationist side. If you are going to argue that the drawings show that the alleged fraud is still being presented, then you need to present the words in the textbooks and show that they are fraudulent or perpetuate a false hypothesis. Thanks for your interest. Enjoy. Edited by Zen Deist, : book infoby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Jefferinoopolis, just saw your new post proposal, and thought you might want to look at this thread.
Proposed New Topics Evolution - A Theory Based on Hoaxes? Message 1: In message 39 of the "Where are all the apes leading up to humans" Crytogod stated
quote: I would like Crytogod to detail some of these hoaxes so we can critically examine them. They are probably already covered here. Of course it would be interesting to see how CrytoGod presents information to show that hoaxes are an integral and intentional part of science ... Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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