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Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Scientific vs Creationist Frauds and Hoaxes | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Mr Jack
Here's the definition of vestigial taken from my evolution course: Thanks, that's a pretty good definition.
If the toes perform an adaptive function (which I'm not convinced they do) then they are not vestigial. If they have been adapted (by evolution) to serve a non-toe function, then they no longer serve as toes. That would be a case of adaptive evolution rather than vestigial remnant. In this case we have splints along the sides of the main toe bones, and I would venture to predict that they are of varying degrees of thickness and length. Certainly when these splint bones have problems it adversely affects the horse, which like the appendix in humans, would not cause that effect by their absence. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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This might help.
quote: So it appears that the old toe bones in today's horse still serve some function BUT are an even better example of evolution in action; they are an example of transitional features that are always claimed to be missing. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi jar,
So it appears that the old toe bones in today's horse still serve some function BUT are an even better example of evolution in action; they are an example of transitional features that are always claimed to be missing. Interestingly we also see polydactylous horses and horses with atavistic polydactyly. http://bill.srnr.arizona.edu/...te%20Evolution/3ToeHorse.htm
quote: Bold for emphasis. The atavistic hoofed toe is (rather obviously) a pale vestige of when the toe supplied direct support to the (evolving) horse. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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ANI Junior Member (Idle past 4584 days) Posts: 3 From: Australia Joined: |
Please, no replies, I've requested a topic proposal about double blind testing. Anyone can make the proposal, doesn't have to be ANI. --Admin
Experiments such as test for ESP and others as for example the Great Prayer experiment are double blinded, which means the subjects taking part in the experiments are relationally distanced. Check out the book of the great man himself, Richard Dawkins on page 62-3 where he states that double blinding has to be used and calls it a standard. Scientists say that double blinding is needed to make the experiments scientific. This is utterly untrue. The only condition that makes an experiment scientific is the addition of a control experiment. When we relationally distance the subjects, and this means that they don't meet and have never met and don't know each other or even of the existence of the other, then we destroy ESP and all that that entails, as for instance a patient knowing the person who is praying for them through first hand contact. In ESP experiments there is a triple jeopardy. They don't just double blind, they also have the subjects guessing, which means the brain gives priority for fuel materials to those areas required in thinking, while areas involved in perception, and not only mental perception but sensory perception are given a very low priority. And lastly they use cards and other objects that have no relevance to the subject. ESP is at a premium inside of personal relationships and the closer and more trusted the relationship the greater the ESP that can be observed. The person though needs to be calm and in a perceptive/ meditative mode. And the subjects also need to have a need to know something. So for instance in the so-called precognition experiments subjects invariably display distress (the physiological indicators recorded as evidence) when a computer is just about to choose a distressing image to display on its screen. This is highly relevant to the subject. Why not do the experiments properly.. scientifically, which means they are NOT double blinded at all. Edited by Admin, : Moderator request.
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Admin Director Posts: 13036 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
I assume you posted this here in this topic about frauds and hoaxes because you believe double-blind testing is a fraud, but I think a discussion about double-blind testing deserves its own topic. If you propose a thread to discuss double-blind testing over at Proposed New Topics I'll take a look as soon as I can.
Large monolithic blocks of text are hard to read, so please use paragraphs. Or if you don't like paragraphs just throw in a blank line for the heck of it every so often.
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Portillo Member (Idle past 4188 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4172 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined:
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Great example.
"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Care to explain and make your point?
This is a debate forum. so you probably should add some commentary to this image. Just a suggestion.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Portillo Member (Idle past 4188 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
Haeckels embryos is a picture that was altered in order to prove embryonic recapitulation.
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: Edited by Portillo, : No reason given.And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Portillo,
Haeckels embryos is a picture that was altered in order to prove embryonic recapitulation. Yep. And? Haeckel's Embryos
quote: More from the link above. Note the image is actual photos of actual embryos during development, and they show how some elements are inherited, just not all. So the fact that Haeckel committed fraud does not alter reality, and the evidence of evolution. Note further that the fraud was uncovered by scientists, not creationists. Any questions? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Also take note of the fact that you pointed at alledged fraud committed in , that's right, 1868! That's nine years after Origin of Species was published!
Portillo, do you have to go back so far to find an alledged fraud committed by evolutionary scientists? We can go back to this year and point at more than one piece of fraud committed by creationists, just in 2011!
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Panda Member (Idle past 3740 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Zen Deist writes:
To quote an earlier response from you:
So the fact that Haeckel committed fraud does not alter reality, and the evidence of evolution. RAZD writes:
Portillo is correct to list it as a scientific fraud. ...this is a tread devoted to listing both scientific and creationist frauds. See Message 1. To qualify it only needs to be shown that it was done on purpose: the intent was to deceive. Granted, the fraud has no effect on our current understanding of biological development - but that is not a requirement in this thread.If I were you And I wish that I were you All the things I'd do To make myself turn blue
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1051 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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It's become a matter of common knowledge widely accepted that Haeckel's drawings were fraudulent, but it's not at all clear that it's true.
The first thing to bear in mind, is that the picture presented by Portillo above is from a book published in 1874 (Anthropogenie: oder, Entwickelungsgeschichte des Menschen), the first edition of said work. Microscopy at the time was not what it is today, and embryos in their earliest stages are small. It was not possible to determine the level of detail we're quite capable of today. What's more, Haeckel was a marine biologist - he hadn't studied all of these vertebrate embyros in detail before drawing them. Some of the images were copied from the work of experts in the relevant field.
Anthropogenie was intended for the general public, created out of lecture notes he used in public lectures. As the years went on, he revised the work as he revised his lecture, adding more detail, clarifying points, and improving accuracy. The pictures of the embryos grow more detailed, and accurate, as each edition goes on. Better microscopes and more available information allowed him to improve his crude sketches. And they aren't shockingly inaccurate. The picture below is taken from Haeckel’s embryos: fraud not proven, by Robert J. Richards, which was also the source of all the info in this post (via Josh Rosensau on scienceblogs). It compares the more accurate drawings Haeckel used in the fourth edition of Anthropogenie, with modern photographs. Considering the equipment available at the time, they're not that bad.
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Portillo Member (Idle past 4188 days) Posts: 258 Joined: |
Do Haeckels embryos still appear in high school science textbooks?
And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12
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jar Member (Idle past 421 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Which version?
Does it matter?Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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