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Author | Topic: Did the Biblical Exodus ever happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member
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Bluescat writes: Which could still be the Sinai Peninsula, since the Sinai peninsula was part of Midian. Why would Pharoah's army chase them into the Sinai? It makes more sense that they were trapped on the west arm of the Red Sea rather than the East arm, since the area would still be in Egypt not Midian. Please cite an ancient map showing the Sinai Peninsula as the land of Midian. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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PaulK writes: The Bible. Exodus 18:27 tells us that Jethro returned to "his own land" after the meeting. If his own land is Midian then surely the meeting is not in Midian. LOL. The logical implication is that Jethro's own land was referring to the land in Midian which was belonged to him, i.e. the part of Midian where he lived.
PaulK writes: Exodus 14 says no such thing. Indeed it seems clear that the Egyptians are simply moving faster than the Israelites, implying clear ground for the chariots. According to Exodus 14:25 God even intervenes to slow the chariots down, suggesting that the chariots would have caught the Israelites if there was no interference. I'll have to check out Numbers etc. The Israelites left before the Egyptians decided to persue. To my knowledge, that timeframe is not specified. There would have been areas, especially in the wadi canyon/valley area where going would have been slower for wheeled vehicles than for people on animals and afoot. Also along the journey there were likely wheel problems and other things to slow up the army some. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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Jar writes: Your OWN cite shows that the Midianites ruled both sides of the Gulf of Aqaba and much of the Sinai. I hadn't noticed this, Jar. Thanks for the heads up on it. You've earned a message five-er from me for that. After doing some reading on this, it appears that historically that secular companies like National Geographics Midian maps whow it in Northwest Saudi Arabia, exclusively. Encyclopedia Britannica has it also exclusively in Saudi Arabia bordering the Gulf of Aqaba. Wiki has it also in Saudi Arabia but says Seventh Day Adventist maps show it in the Sinai Peninsula as well. One site said that some Biblical maps show it in the Sinai Peninsula in order to accomodate the traditional thought that Mt Sinai is in the peninsula. At any rate, the Sinai Peninsula location is debatable. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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PaulK writes: Not really. We don't even know if there was a particular part that Jethro could claim as his own. Herders in that time and place tended to be nomadic. And as has been pointed out you,r own source indicates that the borders of Midian were different then - and you still have not produced one piece of evidence that Mt. Sinai itself was in Midian. According to Numbers 31:8 and 10 there were kings and citys in the land of Midian. There came a time when Moses warred against these kings and their cities by Jehovah's command. This being the case, not all were nomadic shepherds. There were definable areas of the land. LOL. Certainly, Paul, by now, I don't expect some of you members to acknowledge any cited evidence for anything ever supported by evidence relative to the Exodus.
8 And they slew the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain: Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. ........ 10 And all their cities in the places wherein they dwelt, and all their encampments, they burnt with fire. PaulK writes: There's no mention of any wadi or valley to cause delays. Delays on the way wouldn't matter, so that isn't significant at all. The fact is that there is no mention of the Israelites being trapped by the terrain, the Egyptians should have been faster and more mobile and there is some support from the text for the idea. And that is sufficient for the fear among the Israelites that is mentioned. (And given the disparity in numbers, and the benefit of rough terrain to the defenders I would suggest that even that fits with open flat country where the Egyptians could make most use of their chariots). In Exodus 14:1-4 Jehovah instructs Moses into a region where they will be entrapped by the wilderness and the sea, leaving no escape route.
Tell the sons of Israel to turn back and camp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea; you shall camp in front of Baal-zephon, opposite it, by the sea. "For Pharaoh will say of the sons of Israel, ‘They are wandering aimlessly in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.’ "Thus I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord." And they did so." Exodus 14:1-4 BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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PaulK writes: So the Israelites are to "turn back" and the Pharaoh is to assume that they "wander aimlessly" and from THAT conclude that "the wilderness has shut them in". This is not referring to the Israelites being trapped by the terrain. It indicates that they are believed to be lost and unable to navigate the wilderness. They were free to move forward - it is God's command that tells them to turn back. There is nothing that says that the terrain by Pi-hahiroth will trap the Israelites in any way. So again, we see the fact that your "topography" comes not from the Bible but from the imagination of Ron Wyatt. If it came from the Bible don't you think that Wyatt and Moeller would have at least cited the relevant verses, instead of leaving you to scrabble around for support that isn't there ? To wander aimlessly does not entail entrapment. Likely Pharoah had some info as to the route they were taking from scouts who informed him that they changed course toward a rugged entrapment region, as Jehovah had instructed and as was the case. They were likely headed North of the gulf to go around the gulf and Pharoah, knowing the topography of the G of Aqaba, knew they would likely end up at Nuweiba where they would be entrapped when they headed Southeast. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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Jar writes: Buz, do you have any idea where the Nuweiba beach is or the terrain involved in getting there? There is this thing called Google Maps and guess what, you can actually look at them. LOL. This is 2010 AD when modern roadbuilding machines can built nearly anywhere. How about an ancient map of Moses era showing this coaatal highway? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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LOL. Eiliat is way up at the commercial end of the gulf. Nuweiba is a long ways down and no evidence of your alleged busy highway down the coast from Eiliat. Jar, you keep on bringing on these strawmen, having no bearing on the area in question.
None of this diminishes the evidence cited a whit. The Israelites were entrapped in the wilderness area of the gulf, the only escape being the wadi valley, through which they had gone. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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PaulK writes: We have established that the Bible does NOT describe the topography of the crossing site at all. The only clearly relevant text implies clear level terrain. You have done no such thing. Clear contextual implication is that they were entrapped in a wilderness topographically impossible to exit other than the route which they arrived or the sea. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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Jar, you're wasting your time and ours. You ignore all of the clear implications and the corroborating evidence relative to Nuweiba. You have yet to show any evidence of an ancient highway up the Western shoreline of the Gulf of Aqaba. We're still waiting for that.
LOL. The strawman Roman Empire didn't exist to build any highways for Moses's time. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member
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ringo writes: There are a thousand ways that chariot wheels and pictographs could have gotten there and a thousand locations where chariot wheels and pictographs can be found. There's only one way that is corroborated by numerous other phenomena, including the Biblical record. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Huntard writes: Buzsaw writes: After over three millenniums, what lamb bones left on the ground would you expect to find? Why should pottery be found? left by a relative fast moving troop of people in flight. What should you expect to find from nomads constantly on the move? From 1 to 2 million people on the move? A lot of evidence, that's what I'd expect. Other factors regarding traces: They had one food; manna from the sky which lasted 24 hours for each serving. No need for food production or preservation etc. No plows or other implements were needed. Jewish law required the burial of human waste etc. What evidence would you expect? I cited corroborating evidence in the region relating to the beach crossing. You all simply waived them all off, repeating the lie that I've provided no evidence. That's the way it goes with you people who have a vested interest in non-accountability to a higher power. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
jar writes: Remember that this is all BEFORE they are given any laws, before they are even a people. True. However, having been brick making slaves in large numbers and given the multitude in close proximity, one must assume that they were already practicing this hygienic element of Jewish law. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
ringo writes: We'd expect to find remnants of the utensils they used, the mills, the mortars, the pans, etc. Why? These things went with them where ever they went. There's no reason most of that would have lasted 40 years or so. These things were hard to come by and needful. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Likely there were holes or small trenches for the purpose downwind which were covered with layers of dirt until full.
Over the millenia, erosion etc would have left no trace. This is how the Exodus debate has been since the git go, with silly stuff like this after which the skeptics allege they've falsified the evidence. LOL. This is a good example of how futile it is to debate Bibliofobics on this topic. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
huntard writes: Evidence that the Jews were their. Their poop, their dead, their tools, their camp-sites. To name a few. What sort of tools would you have expected them to leave behind or loose? The only Native American camp sites that remain with evidence after less time were the ones where they lived for long periods of time. There have been camp sites all over the continent over the millenia. They had more primitive tools than the Israelites would have had. Thus broken ones etc show up at village sites. Not so with the Jews. Their dead? How many Native American buried dead would you expect to find which would be over three thousand years old? The people were very strong and healthy after years of hard labor in Egypt and having the perfect diet by Jehovah's providence. Relatively few would have died in the wilderness. According to the Biblical record they still lived relatively long lives in those days. Moses lived 120 years. He was healthy when he died, walking to the mountain where he was to die, according to the record. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. Time Relates To What Is Temperal. What Is Eternal Is Timeless.
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