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EvC Forum ⇒ Science Forums ⇒ The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy ⇒

Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"?

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Author Topic:   Is there Biblical support for the concept of "Original Sin"?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 123 of 240 (590948)
11-10-2010 6:31 PM 		Reply to: Message 118 by iano
11-10-2010 2:03 PM

Re: Free Willy
iano writes:
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Suffice to say she either doubts the first (and moves in direction 2) or doesn't doubt either party and sit's where she is with an unresolved contradiction. But if doubting the first ("the first could be wrong") then she'd immediately have reason to doubt the second ("if one can be wrong then so can two")
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You don't supply a reason to doubt the first and not the second.
The reason she accepts that the first party is wrong is because the second party assures her that they are.
She has no reason to think that any of them are lying.
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iano writes:
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True. But how's she to know the Serpent is correct once doubt is permitted as a resolution of the contradiction?
quote:
Doubt: a status between belief and disbelief, involves uncertainty or distrust or lack of sureness of an alleged fact, an action, a motive, or a decision.
There is no doubt.
The first party was incorrect.
The second party was correct.
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iano writes:
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We can dance around Panda but nothing of substance has emerged so far: not in the serpent being the last to speak, not in the doubt raised.
Eve has no doubts.
If you think otherwise could you please show why you think she has doubts?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by iano, posted 11-10-2010 2:03 PM iano has replied
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 Message 124 by iano, posted 11-10-2010 6:47 PM Panda has replied
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 126 of 240 (590958)
11-10-2010 8:38 PM 		Reply to: Message 124 by iano
11-10-2010 6:47 PM

Re: Free Willy
iano writes:
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2) If assured that a person can say something and be wrong, what value an assurance when an assurance is merely something someone says and things people say can be wrong. You're reasoning in a circle (edit: or better said: the serpent has her head spinning in a circle - she's left stuck in the dilemma - "who's wrong")
Are you saying that Eve would no longer know who or what to believe because one person had been identified as being wrong?
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 Message 124 by iano, posted 11-10-2010 6:47 PM iano has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by iano, posted 11-11-2010 4:42 AM Panda has replied
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 131 of 240 (590985)
11-11-2010 6:01 AM 		Reply to: Message 129 by iano
11-11-2010 4:42 AM

Re: Free Willy
iano writes:
​
For want of a means to know any differently, yes.
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The 'means' suggested by you are self-refuting
And just to be completely clear: do you know of any 'means' that would have allowed Eve to know any differently?
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 Message 129 by iano, posted 11-11-2010 4:42 AM iano has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by iano, posted 11-11-2010 7:51 AM Panda has replied
 Message 143 by Shanara99, posted 11-12-2010 9:46 PM Panda has seen this message but not replied
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 133 of 240 (591000)
11-11-2010 10:14 AM 		Reply to: Message 132 by iano
11-11-2010 7:51 AM

Re: How does a free, balanced choice work?
iano writes:
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Which seems to return us to her being presented with a balanced choice in which she is the decider - not external influences.
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And neither of us seems to know how process of choosing in a balanced choice situation is worked out.
She couldn't ask God because he could be wrong.
She couldn't ask the Serpent: he could be wrong too.
Eve would just say "If one person is wrong then you all could be wrong, so I might as go by what I see as that is the only way for me to judge."
quote:
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
So God ensured she would fail and then punished her for failing?
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That seems as cruel and pointless as commanding a child not to cry; slapping them across the face; and then slapping them even harder when they start crying.
Few children have the emotional control to not cry. As adults, we know that.
Is God really a sadistic cruel bully?
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Eve clearly did not have the right 'mental tools' for the job, and God knew it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by iano, posted 11-11-2010 7:51 AM iano has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 11-11-2010 11:29 AM Panda has replied
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 136 of 240 (591025)
11-11-2010 11:47 AM 		Reply to: Message 135 by iano
11-11-2010 11:29 AM

Re: How does a free, balanced choice work?
iano writes:
​
The serpent has built a case for the desirability of the fruit prior to her eating it.
The Serpent made it more desirable, yes.
But "the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye" is not to do with the Serpent.
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iano writes:
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a) it was desirable all by itself but God's prohibition held her in check (in which case she had a free choice). Then the serpent comes along and reduces the restraint of the prohibition by sowing the notion that people (him and God) can be wrong. The fruit, the third party, exercises control.
Reduces the restraint? You said earlier that it completely removed the restraint.
Eve (we both agreed) didn't know who or what to believe, so I proposed that she would believe what she saw: "good for food and pleasing to the eye".
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iano writes:
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b) Her having chosen for his pitch as an exercise in free choice.
It is the same free choice that you give a baby if you offer it a lit or an unlit sparkler.
God gave Eve a choice he knew she was not equipped to make correctly and then punished her.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by iano, posted 11-11-2010 11:29 AM iano has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by iano, posted 11-11-2010 6:46 PM Panda has not replied
 Message 138 by AdminPD, posted 11-12-2010 6:40 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied
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