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Author
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Topic: Passover problems in the Gospels
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 39 of 107 (546772)
02-13-2010 7:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Jazzns
02-13-2010 2:16 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
Jazzns, Ok....this is getting frustrating. I keep giving you scripture, you keep giving me websites. You fail each and every time to address the actual scripture, instead you run to websites which not only agree with me but futher confuse you. Using our timeline today...Passover would be on the 15th. Or after 70, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Passover were combined, to start on the 15th. NEITHER has any bearing whatsover on our debate. Jesus was killed in 33. I even gave you a website, which you claimed backed up your assertions and I showed you in my last post to you, you misunderstood it. Forget every single website you have. Our friendly, yet frustrating  debate is stuck on two key issues. You keep stating over and over that the Passover is the 15th. Please tell me, according to these verses, when Passover is. "They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight (erev) is the LORD’S Passover." Leviticus 23:5 "They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5 Can you also give me scripture which states anywhere in the Bible, that Passover is the 15th. Mark 14: 12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" Do you agree or disagree that it states the lamb is to be killed this day? 16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. Do you agree or disagree that they are preparing the Passover meal? 17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me." Do you agree or disagree this is the end of the day or very close to it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Jazzns, posted 02-13-2010 2:16 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by Jazzns, posted 02-13-2010 7:22 PM | | hERICtic has not replied | | | Message 64 by Jazzns, posted 02-15-2010 6:03 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Re: Crucified on the 14th in John
PD, You and Jazzns keep stating I do not understand, but neither of you actually is using scripture to back up your arguments. The site you gave is great, for it breaks down everything. Except for one small problem. The 14th is the Passover. I keep giving the verses, no one seems to be paying attention to them. LOL! "They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight (erev) is the LORD’S Passover." Leviticus 23:5 "They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5 Numbers 28: 16 Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the LORD'S Passover. Is the Passover on the 14th and 15th?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2010 7:29 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Re: Times Change
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You and Jazzns keep stating I do not understand, but neither of you actually is using scripture to back up your arguments. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PD writes: Because you don't seem to understand that time has passed between the OT and the NT. Traditions evolved. As I said in Message 32, reckoning the day from sunset to sunset was Babylonian influence. I never disagreed that times do change. But the Passover is law according to god. Are you telling me Jesus violated this law and they didnt eat it on the 14th? I'm not sure why you keep bringing up sunset to sunset, I am quite aware of how the Jews kept time.
When the priests were writing about the past, they needed to write as things were, not as they had become. So in the OT, Passover was probably eaten after dark on the 14th with the 15th starting at sunrise. Which is what I have been stating all along. YOU were the one who kept saying Passover, the actual day, was the 15th. I was the one who stated it was the 14th. Yes, at the end of the 14th, early 15th, the Passover meal was eaten.
In the NT, the Jews reckoned the day from sunset to sunset. The lamb still had to be slaughtered on the 14th and the Passover meal still had to be eaten between the twilights. Also in the first century, the laws about not working on a sabbath were extremely strict. [qs/] LOL! PD, I have said this from the beginning. The 14th is the Passover. Hence why I kept pasting the scripture. As for working on the Sabbath, it has nothing to do with our debate. Slaughtering the lambs was not considered work. Preparing the meal was not considered work. As I showed in Message 22, the lamb is slaughtered at twilight in Exodus, not at noon. I agree! To a point. Josephus states they started slaughtering at noon. But I do agree it was twiligtht, as per scripture. Again, another moot point.
So the specifics surrounding the Passover Seder can and have changed over time. Therefore, we have to look at what was going on in the first century. They may not have had a lamb sacrificed, they may have just bought enough lamb or goat for "sandwiches". I agree. Hence why I have no problem with someone claiming Passover today is the 15th. But I have no doubt, when Jesus sat down to eat the Passover, he was following his fathers rules. Passover is the 14th.
In the first century, when a day was reckoned from sunset to sunset, the lamb was sacrificed on the 14th at the temple. The Passover Seder was eaten after 6pm on the 15th between the twilights. Show evidence of first century Passover traditions if you disagree with what I've said concerning the passover. Well, I can throw it right back and state show me evidence in 33 that Jesus failed to follow the OT laws regarding when Passover is, right? What is more likely? That Jesus, his followers, the Jews, the Pharisees decided to forsake gods laws in the OT and ignored that the Passover is on the 14th or that they followed gods protocol? But again, neither of us can actually offer evidence as to what day this actually occured, it just makes more sense that it was the 14th. But as I have said over and over, the day does not matter. In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on the day the lamb is slaughtered or the beginning of the next day. The following afternoon Jesus is crucified. In John, Jesus eats his last meal the same day, the Passover, when he is killed. Jesus is the symbolic sacrificial lamb.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2010 4:54 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 50 of 107 (546838)
02-14-2010 7:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 43 by Peg
02-13-2010 9:28 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
heERICtic writes: The day of Preparation for the Passover, is the Passover. They prepare the lambs.
Peg writes: the day of preparation is the day before passover. Remember the day begins at sunset...so during the daylight is the preparation, and when the sunsets the new day begins. This new day is the passover.... otherwise, they are makign their preparations during the night time and there would not be enought time to eat the lamb 'between the two evenings' I think I told PD, it can mean the day before or the day of, since the lamb was called the Passover. Lambs killed at twilight, which would be around the time of the death of Jesus. But you just created another problem then. In the synoptics, Jesus is killed the day after the lambs are slain. You just stated above that Jesus was crucified the day BEFORE Passover.
the two evenings are the time when the sun is sets, and the darkness of night appears. This is a short time and this is the time when the lamb was to be eaten....meaning it had to already be prepared ie slaughtered, skinned, gutted and roasted. I am at a loss as to why everyone keeps telling me when a day starts and ends. I know this and have stated this from the beginning. Sheesh.  heERICtic writes: Also, John 18: 28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. Here, it clearly states they Passover has not been eaten. Obviously then, its the day of the Passover.
Its not all that clear at all. early in the day could mean after the Passover meal had taken place which happened at sundown (14th) the previous night. 12 hours later would be sunrise and it is still the passover (14th) right up until 5.59pm that day. It does not say early in the day. It states early in the morning. Morning started at sunup. So this would be 12 hours later! Too late for them to have eaten the Passover meal. The meal is to start at the end of the day/beginning of the next. In other words, lets say a day end/begins at 6pm. You use this general time as I do. At 5;59, the meal begins. Lambs are slaughtered afternoon, meal is served, its 5:59. At 6pm, next day begins. Now the scripture above states its early morning, which means its now 12 hours after the day began. Remember, the meal is to be eaten as the new day ends/begins. Not 12 hours later. So obviously, the reason they could not enter is because they had not eaten the meal yet, since it was to occur towards the end of the day.
The meal for the next night (15th) beginning at 6pm would be the Festival of Unfermented Cakes....which is still refered to as 'the passover'. Remember that the passover is a 7 day long festival and each day can be called 'the passover' That is a meal during Passover. It is NOT the Passover meal. Its the Passover meal itself which would prevent them from entering the Hall. heERICtic writes: Simple question. Jesus is called the lamb of god. Does it make more sense to state he was symbolically the lamb of god the day after the lambs were killed or the day of the lambs being killed?
it certainly makes sense to say he was the lamb on the day of the lambs being killed and there is nothing in the gospels to suggest that he died on the 15th rather then on the 14th. You just agreed with me. If Jesus was killed on the day the lambs were slain, then its the Passover. The lambs were killed on the day called Passover. Ignore the 14th or 15th. As you stated and agreed with me, symbolically, Jesus is the Passover lamb. Both slain on the same day, dying about the same time. So Jesus was killed on the day the lambs were slain. Makes perfect sense. In the synoptics, Jesus is killed the day AFTER the lambs were slain. The next day.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 43 by Peg, posted 02-13-2010 9:28 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 61 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 3:43 AM | | hERICtic has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Re: Times Change
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I never disagreed that times do change. But the Passover is law according to god. Are you telling me Jesus violated this law and they didnt eat it on the 14th? I'm not sure why you keep bringing up sunset to sunset, I am quite aware of how the Jews kept time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PD writes: Good grief! A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) Good gried right back at ya! What does this have to do with anything? God explicitly tells the Jews the Passover is the 14th.
To eat the flesh of the Paschal sacrifice on the night of the fifteenth of Nissan (Ex. 12:8) (affirmative). Good grief right back at ya again! I have said this over and over! I agree with you! Tell me where I havent! That is NOT what we are debating. I have said since my the beginning the lambs were slain on the 14th, late 14th or early 15th the meal is eaten. I have never deviated from this. It has NOTHING to do with our debate. I'm not even sure why you keep harping on this one aspect. In the synoptics, the lambs are slain. Jesus eats his last meal AFTER the lambs are slain. The NEXT day, after the lambs are slain, Jesus is killed. I have said this numerous times. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But as I have said over and over, the day does not matter. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As have I, so stop arguing about it. If you keep arguing about it then show evidence of how the event was practiced in the first century. Oi Vey! How many times have I said to drop it, that I'm not arguing about the day, that I'm debating the time frame as to when the lambs were killed? Jazzsn and you keep bringing it up. Not me. Once you bring it up, I try to clarify it by showing you scripture (which I have done numerous times) that Passover is the 14th. I could care less what day you call it. In the synoptics, for the upteenth time, the last meal of Jesus is AFTER the lambs are slain. In John, the lambs are never slain. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on the day the lamb is slaughtered or the beginning of the next day. The following afternoon Jesus is crucified. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree. The synoptics have Jesus crucified on a preparation day and the chief priests said they wouldn't do anything during the festival.
He can't be crucified on a preparation day before a sabbath and on passover day. How can you disagree? Luke 22: 7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. We know the lambs are killed on this day. Later that day, be it late 14th or early 15th, Jesus eats his last meal. Obviously its a Passover meal. But ignore that, call it just a Passover seder. Its a moot point. The main aspect is that on this day, the lambs are slain. This is crucial. So we know the lambs are slain. Mark 14: 17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me." So now, this would be the next day. Friday. Mark 15:1Very early in the morning, the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate. Still next day. Mark 15:42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Day before the Sabbath. Evening is arriving, so it would soon be the next day. The Sabbath, Saturday. Its really not important what we call the day, only that we know the lambs were slain on one day, the next day Jesus is crucified ,with another day arriving. Some say Wed. he was killed, some say Thursday. Those are different debates though. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In John, Jesus eats his last meal the same day, the Passover, when he is killed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you changing your position?
From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?
Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal. Not at all. I do not think that is my quote above. I think it is a partial quote, combined with someone elses. This is where you are gettting confused. Jesus ate the Passover meal in the synoptics, not in John. In John, hes killed on the Passover, the day the lambs are slain. Hence why he could not eat the Passover meal, he was already crucified. Even your site you gave asserts this. Here is some scripture again (not from your website, didnt want to confuse you) John 18:28 Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover. The reason they havent eaten the Passover meal yet, is that it was to occur late in the day, early next day, their last meal. Its the day of Passover, the morning. John:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, Behold your King! You're reading it as the Preparation Day for Passover. It does not say that. It states the Preparation Day of THE Passover. Big difference. The Passover was the meal with the lamb. There is a preparation day before Passover, just like there are preparation days before Sabbaths. But "the Passover" is the meal itself. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus is the symbolic sacrificial lamb. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Symbolic of what? See. Thats the kicker, how we know Jesus was killed on Passover. Modulous explained it very well. Jesus=the lamb. He is called the lamb numerous times in John. Jesus is also called the lamb in other books in the NT. Jesus is the lamb. I cannot seem to find a great site which parellels side by side the similarities of Jesus and the lamb, but hopefully this can shed some light on it. http://www.godandscience.org/...s/passover.html#scITh0NH6Fog
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2010 7:14 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Re: Preparation Day
I have the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I could say the same about you. Jassnz and Peg wont even accept that there is an error between the two...but I'm the one you think this about? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How can you disagree? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy. I've explained this twice. We don't really know the time frame after Jesus ate and when he went to the Mount of Olives. Since the chief priest said they wouldn't do anything until after the feast, which would imply the FOUB and not just a meal; they would not have arrested Jesus during the feast. (Logistically, I don't think they had time to do all they supposedly did.) Since they have already eaten the Passover meal in Mark, the preparation day can't be the preparation for the Passover meal/sabbath. In the Synoptics, Jesus is not crucified at the same time as the Passover lambs. Ok let me back up a bit. Explain how your points (which you have just described above) have any bearing on our friendly debate(at least I would love to still think so). As for the synoptics,I have already stated numerous times its John, that compares Jesus to the Passover lambs. So what difference does it make in the synoptics? None. Its John that NEEDS Jesus to be the sacrifice on Passover, not in the synoptics. Heck Modulous even joined in and explained why I have said over and over in John Jesus is the symbolic lamb. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not at all. I do not think that is my quote above. I think it is a partial quote, combined with someone elses. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slow down and read what people post. There's no excuse for not checking your own opening post to check the quote. It is your quote. Read your OP and familiarize yourself with your position. Where did I state this? Please show me. You accuse me of making the above statement, when I did not. I told you it was partially my quote, with someone elses. Then you just accued me again of being "lazy" and not checking the opening post. I could now accuse you of the same. Please show me where I made such a claim? This is what you accused me of saying: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal. Here is my actual quote, refer back to post 1: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover? As I stated, its two quotes combined. One from someone else. I have stated my point since post 1, John could not have eaten the Passover meal. Your apology will be accepted. Also, you claim I have no concept of Jewish time. Where did you come up with this? Not only am I aware of how the Jews told time, I can back it up with quite a bit of scripture. I am also aware that there is an argument that some Jews told time from sunrise to sunrise. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're reading it as the Preparation Day for Passover. It does not say that. It states the Preparation Day of THE Passover. Big difference. The Passover was the meal with the lamb. There is a preparation day before Passover, just like there are preparation days before Sabbaths. But "the Passover" is the meal itself. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're kidding right?
This is why I feel you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Not a good reputation to start. Why am I kidding? Looking up "the Passover", each time refers to the meal.
I've already agreed that Jesus did not eat the Passover meal in John.
I've already agreed that Jesus did eat the Passover meal in the Synoptics. So what are we arguing about then?
Therefore, in the book of John, Jesus was not crucified on the Day of Passover. Lets break this down then. I am having trouble accepting that you feel its the day before Passover John 13: 1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.[a] 2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. This is the last meal Jesus ate. Notice it states before the Passover feast. Now an argument could be made that its refering to the Passover meal or just a meal in general, that the Passover was to occur the following night. It goes on to say that evening hits. So now its another day or soon to be. As thsi day hits, Jesus is killed in the afternoon. Do I understand you correctly? On this day, Jesus is killed, is the day before the Passover?
Looking at the Book of Mark, I think a case can be made the Jesus probably wasn't crucified on the Day of Passover either. In all four Gospels, Jesus was killed and buried on the Day of Preparation. This is exactly why your posts drive me batty! LOL! You have said over and over that the day of preparation is the day before Passover. Notice what you just claimed. Neither was crucified on the day of Passover, but on the day of preparation. Now read what you also wrote, in this same post: You just stated a few quotes ago: I've already agreed that Jesus did not eat the Passover meal in John.
I've already agreed that Jesus did eat the Passover meal in the Synoptics. You went from neither eating a Passover meal, to Jesus eating one in the synoptics. You also stated: Since they have already eaten the Passover meal in Mark... Again, you just claimed that the Pasover meal was eaten in Mark...when you just previously claimed the Passover meal was NOT eaten! Now do you understand why I have a hard time following you? Also, I am totally confused on how you can claim Jesus was killed on the day before Passover, when the synpotics state Jesus was killed the day after the lambs were slain. Do you agree or disagree that on the day the lambs are slain, is Passover? Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2010 1:26 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Re: No Consistent Position
My prediction is this thread is just about ready to stall. This is my last post as a participant.
Your position is inconsistent and I don't really have time to play games. I truly hope that is not the case. I have not changed my opinion at all. Since post 1, I have stated Jesus was crucified on the day after Passover. In John, on Passover. You have stated a few times Jesus ate the Passover meal. Then stated he was killed on the preparation day of Passover. This means its the day before. How can Jesus eat the Passover meal and yet be killed the day before Passover? You have never addressed this issue.
I have actually explained my discovery concerning the chief priests in Mark 4 times. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51, and Message 56) The point being that if the chief priests meant what they said, Jesus probably wasn't crucified on Passover, especially since he was buried on a sabbath preparation day. But this is where you lose me. I really do not understand what you are trying to state. I have asked you quite a few times if the lambs were slain on Passover. Unless I missed it, I do not think you answered the question how this could occur, but then state its was the preparation day he was killed on. The synoptics state Jesus was killed the day after the lambs were slain. This is crystal clear. So you lose me by stating its on the day of preparation. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the synoptics,I have already stated numerous times its John, that compares Jesus to the Passover lambs. So what difference does it make in the synoptics? None. Its John that NEEDS Jesus to be the sacrifice on Passover, not in the synoptics. Heck Modulous even joined in and explained why I have said over and over in John Jesus is the symbolic lamb. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't disagreed that the lamb is an issue in the book of John. The lamb issue wasn't part of your opening post. (That's Message 1) In your opening post, your question was whether Jesus ate the Passover meal in the book of John. But you ARE disagreeing with me! In John, Jesus is the symbolic lamb. I even gave you a site that compares the lambs aspects with what Jesus went through. How can you agree that Jesus is the lamb, then state it was not the Passover? Again, this is where you lose me. hERICtic writes: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is what you accused me of saying: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal. Here is my actual quote, refer back to post 1: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is what I wrote in Message 51. PurpleDawn writes: Are you changing your position? From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.
The italicized portion is from your OP and is exactly what you quoted above. The next paragraph is mine and not attributed to you. When you quoted them in Message 55, you ran them together. But it does look like you are quoting me. All of it. You didnt restate that the next words were yours. I even stated its a partial quote from me but the rest is someone elses. You didnt admit they were your words. Instead you told me to pay attention to my posts. Which is what I stated. I knew the second part were not my words, but if you read it, it seems like you are quoting me entirely, stressing only part of my words. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have stated my point since post 1, John could not have eaten the Passover meal. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I assume you mean Jesus and I have already agreed several times that in the book of John, Jesus does not appear to have eaten the Passover meal. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51 and Message 56)
Apology not extended. You need to lighten up a lil. I was joking around. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now do you understand why I have a hard time following you? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Join the club!
Good Day. Im sorry you feel that way. I just reread all your posts and I think the biggest obstacle in our lack of communication is that you mention the "Preparation Day" quite often. The problem, at least in my opinion, is that we would be talking about Passover and you'll mention in some respect a "Preparation Day". I feel that perhaps at times you meant it as the day before the Sabbath, while I was taking it as the day before the Passover each and every time. So it gets very confusing when you say Jesus was killed on the preparation Day, but ate a Passover meal. I'm taking it as you are refering to the day before the Passover, which is why I kept quetioning how could Jesus eat a Passover meal? Regardless of your decision, no hard feelings. I still greatly enjoy reading your posts. Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 58 by purpledawn, posted 02-14-2010 6:17 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 62 of 107 (546945)
02-15-2010 8:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 61 by Peg
02-15-2010 3:43 AM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
Hi Peg. I agree with you 100%. Always have on the time frame. The confusion lies bc the word "Preparation Day" was often used. This could mean before the Passover day, or before the Sabbath. So they time frame in the synoptics is: Preparation Day before the Passover. At 6pm the day turns into: Passover, which falls on the preparation day for the Sabbath. So when PD kept saying Jesus was killed on the Preparation Day, she never stated before the Passover or before the Saturday Sabbath. I kept thinking she was refering to the day before the Passover. Now, my quoted comments above, should make sense as to why I kept repeating my point over and over. Great chart though. Sorry for the confusion. But here lies the problem with the gospels and why PD kept refering about a change, which goes against the OT scripture. The slaying of the lambs is on Passover. Yet the synoptics state the slaying of the lambs occured one the first day of unleavened bread. This cannot possibly be correct. I have read in a few places that the days were combined after 70. In other words, the authors were not aware that in 33, they were two seperate days. Today, Passover, from my understanding is a seven day event. Yet the OT teaches that its 8 days. Its appears the combined Passover with the first day of the FOUB. Originally Jazzsn kept throwing sites my way that showed the Passover starting on the 15th. He was quite upset that I kept stating it was the 14th. We were both correct.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 61 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 3:43 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 63 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 5:33 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 65 of 107 (547004)
02-15-2010 6:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 63 by Peg
02-15-2010 5:33 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
hERICtic writes: The confusion lies bc the word "Preparation Day" was often used. This could mean before the Passover day, or before the Sabbath.
There are two preparation days. One is the preparation for the passover lamb and the other is the preparation of the unfermented bread/cakes.
Mark explains that the preparation day was the day before the sabbath.
Mark 15:42 42 Now as it was already late in the afternoon, and since it was Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, So he is speaking about Nisan 14 here. Not the passover of the lamb, but the daylight hours after the lamb had been eaten and the preparations for the unfermented cakes was taking place. There is also a preparation for the Sabbath. So it tends to get confusing. Mark 15 is after the Passover, which is now the day of preparation for the Sabbath. Lambs are slain, evening meal comes, day changes, Passover is eaten and now its the day of preparation. hERICtic writes: The slaying of the lambs is on Passover. Yet the synoptics state the slaying of the lambs occured one the first day of unleavened bread. This cannot possibly be correct.
Matthew 26:17 On the first day of the unfermented cakes the disciples came up to Jesus, saying: Where do you want us to prepare for you to eat the passover? Mark 14: 12 Now on the first day of unfermented cakes, when they customarily sacrificed the passover [victim], his disciples said to him: Where do you want us to go and prepare for you to eat the passover? Luke 22:7 The day of the unfermented cakes now arrived, on which the passover [victim] must be sacrificed; 8 and he dispatched Peter and John, saying: Go and get the passover ready for us to eat If this is what you are referring to, there could be a few explanations for this. the greek word in the text of Matthew is 'protos' and in other verses its rendered as before such as at Joh 1:15, 30.... he existed before [protos] me. So its quite possible that Matthew should be read as 'on the day before the unfermented cakes' which is why we cant be dogmatic about this one verse. But it does not work. Mark states its the first day of unleavened bread, when the lamb was slain. So its an open and shut case there is something wrong here. They should be two seperate days. I have read though, that after 70, the days were combined. Evidence? No. Still have the sites which states this? No. Could I find it on the internet? Probably. But it has no bearing on this debate though. Its clear the day the lambs were slain, later that night or early the next day, Jesus ate the Passover.
At John 19:14 Now it was preparation of the passover; it was about the sixth hour [of the daytime, between 11:00 a.m. and noon]. This, of course, was after the time of the Passover meal, which had been eaten the night before. But in this verse the Greek word paEraEskeuEe is translated preparation. This word seems to mark, not the day preceding Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath. That does not make any sense Peg. Nothing in John indicates it was a Passover meal. Nothing. In fact, if its the day of preparation for the Passover, it would be the day before the Passover, the 13th. The Passover meal could not have been eaten yet. Heck, the lambs were not slain yet. How can noon, on the day of preparation day for the Passover, be AFTER the Passover meal? The Passover meal was eaten late on the day of Passover or early next day.
this is in harmony with Exodus 16:5 & 22-27 where, in preparation for the weekly Sabbath, the Jews collected and baked or boiled extra manna because they could not do it on the day of the sabbath. In time the day before the sabbath came to be termed Preparation, which is what Mark called it at Mr 15:42 Its not in harmony. We are talking about the slaying of the lamb. The lambs were slain on Passover. The preparation day of the Passover is the day before. This was PD's argument. It does have merit. I have read that the preparation for the Passover can also refer to the day of Passover since thats the day the lambs are prepared. Either way, there is a problem. Remember, the meal for Passover was eaten at the end of the day, beginning of the next day. In the synoptics, its clear Jesus eats his meal at the end of the Passover or beginning of the next day. In John, Jesus was killed at noon. You want the last meal to be eaten before his death, but that would be impossible. Its the day of preparation FOR the Passover. Either its the day before Passover or the day of. If its the day of, Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal yet.
Its also noteworthy that Luke calls the passover 'the festival of undermented cakes at Luke 22:1 Now the festival of the unfermented cakes, the so-called Passover, was getting near The facts are that all the gospels expressly put it that jesus had eaten the passover lamb with his diciples in the upper room No. Peg, we are talking about John. We both agree the synoptics state he ate the Passover lamb. John makes no such admission. He flat out contradicts it.
John 13 doesnt mention passover specifically, but he is clearly speaking of the same night but in much more detail. Chapters 13-17 is the detailed discussion that took place while they were in the upper room and chapter 18 begins with Having said these things, Jesus went out with his disciples across the winter torrent of Kidron to where there was a garden, and he and his disciples entered into it from this point on John relates the account about Jesus arrest in the garden of gethsemane. John has the same events, but occuring on a different day. His day is the preparation FOR the Passover. This can only mean the day before Passover or the day of. Purple Dawn states its the day before, I say the day of Passover. More evidence leans towards my view since Jesus represents the lamb. Think about it. John goes out his way to compare Jesus over and over to the lamb. Josephus states the lambs were slain between 12-3. When was Jesus crucified? When did he die? Were his legs broken? Lamb a sacrifice, Jesus a sacrifice. The synoptics agree Jesus ate his last meal AFTER the slaying, toward the end of the Passover day. Jesus is crucified the day after the lambs are slain. In John, the lambs were not even slain yet, since its the day of Preparation of Passover.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 63 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 5:33 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 66 by hERICtic, posted 02-15-2010 6:22 PM | | hERICtic has not replied | | | Message 67 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 6:34 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 66 of 107 (547006)
02-15-2010 6:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 65 by hERICtic
02-15-2010 6:07 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
Hey Jazzsn, I didnt read your entire post through yet, but I did want to address some key issues.
Exodus 12 cont writes: 14"This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. 15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. 17And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever. 18 In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. 19 For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land. 20You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread." The curious thing to note about this passage is that God say, "Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread." but the range of dates is from "the fourteenth day of the month at evening", "until the twenty-first day of the month at evening". This is where some confusion gets introduced and is perhaps why Mark thinks that the FOUB starts on the 14th. If you count the days from the 14th to the 21st then there are 8 days if you are inclusive about the evenings on both of them. Either God cannot count, or this gives us a clue as to what they mean in Exodus when they say "at evening". I choose the latter. I think this is where you are getting confused. God (I mean the author) can count. Its an 8 day festivel. First day is Passover, followed by seven days of the FOUB.
For me it seems obvious that the evening in verse 18 is in reference to the same as the evening in verse 6 and it is clear that they started eating the unleavened bread that night after the lambs were slaughtered. This site should help clarify the confusion: Are There Eight Days of Unleavened Bread
What is the "evening" after the lambs are slaughtered when the angel of death kills all the firstborn? The night that they had to get ready to leave the next morning and start eating unleavened bread? It is the 15th according to the way post-exilic Jews counted their days. That is the Passover Event. The night that God spared the firstborn Jews and brought the plague to the rest of Egypt. That happens on the 15th of Nisan, the prior day is when they do all the work to prepare to leave Egypt. With regards to the holiday, that day in particular is the anniversary of the Preparation Day which is the 14th. The Passover Event hadn't happened yet and if the sequencing is not enough to convince you, God even says that the FOUB starts that next morning (the same "day" as the Passover Event) as "this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt". So if the FOUB is on the day, immediatly after the evening of the Passover Event, we have other verses that help us drive this point home. Leviticus 23 writes: 4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. 8But you shall present a food offering to the LORD for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work." So far every scripture you have given clearly states the Passover is the 14th, the FOUB is the day after. Which is what I stated from the beginning. I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here.
So when this verse mentiones Passover, what exactly is it talking about? Well, it also happens to mention the FOUB as being on the 15th. So I would equate "on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover" as meaning something akin to my definition of Passover Holiday. You could only equate that phrase with the Passover Event if you reckon days according to modern standards with the days changing over at midnight. Some verses make the same distinction as above: Numbers 28 writes: 16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD's Passover, 17 and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. 18 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, Joshua 5 writes: 10While the people of Israel were encamped at Gilgal, they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening on the plains of Jericho. 11And the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain. 12And the manna ceased the day after they ate of the produce of the land. And there was no longer manna for the people of Israel, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year. Numbers 28 writes: 16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD's Passover, 17 and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. 18 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work, Joshua 5 writes: 10While the people of Israel were encamped at Gilgal, they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening on the plains of Jericho. 11And the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain. 12And the manna ceased the day after they ate of the produce of the land. And there was no longer manna for the people of Israel, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year. Other verses make the distinction much clearer by stating specifically that the 14th is the Preparation Day. Not one verse you gave states the 14th is the preparation day. In fact, every single one I believe, states the Passover is the 14th. So you have me very confused at you angle. My point: Synoptics have the lamb slain. Jesus eats the lamb after the slaying, either late that night or early next day. The lambs are slain on Passover. What verse that you have given changes any of this? The only thing I can think of, is that to you, a preparation day can be on the actual Passover day, since they are technically preparing the lamb. If that is what you are saying, I agree.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by hERICtic, posted 02-15-2010 6:07 PM | | hERICtic has not replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 68 of 107 (547009)
02-15-2010 6:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 64 by Jazzns
02-15-2010 6:03 PM
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Re: Resetting the conversation - What is Passover?
Part Deux.... First, great, indepth post Jazzns. Well thought out...wrong, but well thought out nonetheless. Ok, its only your ending overall thats incorrect. Not sure how you can still arrive at your conclusion when you've went through so much trouble explaining everything.
Mark 14 writes: 12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?" This is somewhat nonsensical by Mark as I previously said. The first day of the FOUB is Passover Day is the day they were leaving Egypt after the plague, not the day they were killing lambs and painting their doorways. The whole concept of the FOUB is that they didn't have time to bake bread with leavening because they were getting the heck out of dodge. If Mark is talking about the daytime before the anniversary of Passover Event then he is talking about the Preparation Day plain and simple. Remember that when Mark was written there was no more temple and therefore no more sacrafices. The Jews for a long time now had been absorbing into different cultures and were experimenting with different ways of keeping their traditions alive. This helps date Mark and since the other Synoptics copy him it also dates them. Then there is nothing to suggest it is anything other than the same night, in fact Mark 15 says: Mark 15 writes: 1 And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole Council. And they bound Jesus and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate. So the evening of the anniversary of the Passover Event is when Jesus is arrested. The next morning is Passover Day, the high Sabbath when they are taking Jesus to trial. This is obviously weird but it is what it is. This is where we have a problem. Just a simple question. ok, questions. Im greedy. The day the lambs are slain, is this the 14th? Yes or no? The day the lambs are slain, is this called Passover? Yes or no?
We know it is at least still the FOUB because: Mark 15 cont writes: 6 Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked. I agree. It is the FOUB. Mark 15 occurs after the lambs are slain in Mark 14. Evening arrives after the slaying of the lambs, so this means Mark 15 is the 15th. The day after Passover.
There is no indication that more time passed before the cruficixion therefore Jesus was crucified on Passover Day, the "real" first day of the FOUB. Nope. Passover is the day the lambs are slain. You gave plenty of scripture for this. I'm not sure how you keep missing this key point. Jesus could not be killed on Passover in the synoptics bc after the slaying of the lambs, he eats his last meal and the NEXT day he is crucified.
John is different as you know from several verses but this one the most distinct IMO: John 19 writes: 31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. The day of Preparation here is with respect to Passover because it describes it as "that Sabbath was a high day". In other words, not just your run of the mill Sabbath. And since we knew from previous verses in John the proximity to Passover (his accusers wouldn't enter into the court)..... Could his accusers enter the court on Passover?
......and the theology of Jesus as the Paschal Lamb, this day is therefore the Preparation Day for the Passover. If Jesus is the lamb, why is he killed the day before Passover? Lambs were slain on Passover.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 64 by Jazzns, posted 02-15-2010 6:03 PM | | Jazzns has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by Jazzns, posted 02-15-2010 11:55 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 69 of 107 (547014)
02-15-2010 7:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 67 by Peg
02-15-2010 6:34 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
Peg, we have a crucial difference here. Before we go any further, we need to agree on this issue. You are stating that the Passover meal was eaten at the beginning of the 14th. I say its the end/beginning the 15th. This is very important. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening." Exodus 12:18 "Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty" Exodus 23:15 "The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt." Exodus 34:18 If you start from the end of the 13th/beginning of the 14th, you get eight days. Not seven. Also, you're ignoring what the synoptics state. Mark 14: 12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" 13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there." 16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. 17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me." Are you suggesting that up until evening when Jesus sits down to eat his last meal, this is the 13th? So the FOUB is now the 13th? Can you also show me in the OT where it states the lamb is slain on the 13th? Also, its impossible for his last meal to be eaten early 14th. We know from scripture the Passover is the 14th. We also know: Exodus 29:38, 39 This, moreover, is what thou shalt offer upon the altar, two lambs of a year old day by day, continually: the one lamb, shalt thou offer in the morning, and the second lamb, shalt thou offer between the evenings From the above, we know lambs are sacrified in the morning, then the evening, which would be the END of the day. Passover is the 14th, the day the lambs are slain. Jesus could not have eaten his last meal early 14th, for two reasons. 1) Lambs slain on 14th. Not 13th are you claim. 2) You could suggest I suppose that when the 14th began at evening, the lambs were slain and then he ate his meal after. But that is the next problem. On the 14th, the first slayings occur in the morning. The second, the evening. So the Passover supper would be the end of the day.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 67 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 6:34 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 70 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 8:15 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 71 of 107 (547021)
02-15-2010 8:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Peg
02-15-2010 8:15 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
you've officially confused me. According to scripture the passover lamb was eating at the very start of the 14th...which starts at sundown - 6pmish. Please show me where it states the lambs were to be eaten at the beginning of the 14th. Also, why did you ignore the part where I showed you it would have to be the end of the 14th, not the beginning (in regards to the seven days of bread, not eight)?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 8:15 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 73 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 9:21 PM | | hERICtic has replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 72 of 107 (547023)
02-15-2010 8:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 70 by Peg
02-15-2010 8:15 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
In the hours before...say 3pm ,4pm, 5pm, this is the time when the preparations would be made of the lamb. It would have to be killed, gutted, cleaned and roasted.... this would all be taking place on the 13th because the 14th doesnt begin until sundown approx 6 oclock in the evening. I never said they were slain on the 13th...i said they were prepared on the 13th in the hours before the 14th began which is at sundown. Peg, in quote 1, you state the lambs were killed, gutted, cleaned and roasted. In quote 2, you say you never said the lambs were slain on the 13th. How does one kill, gut a lamb on the 13th, but not slay it on the 13th?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 70 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 8:15 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 74 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 9:28 PM | | hERICtic has not replied |
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4546 days) Posts: 371 Joined: 08-18-2009
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Message 76 of 107 (547089)
02-16-2010 6:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 73 by Peg
02-15-2010 9:21 PM
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Re: Passover is the 15th
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hERICtic writes: Please show me where it states the lambs were to be eaten at the beginning of the 14th.
here is exodus 12:3-10 read it carefully and you will notice 2 things 1. The lamb was to be eaten on the 14th between the two evenings - this means it was to be eaten between sundown and the dark of night. I agree. At the end of the 14th.
2. None of the lamb was to be left over in the morning - therefore they were not permitted to eat any passover lambs after this time. If there was some leftover, it had to be burned with fire. I agree. The morning of the 15th. They left in the morning of the 15th.
3 Speak to the entire assembly of Israel, saying, ‘On the tenth day of this month they are to take for themselves each one a sheep for the ancestral house, a sheep to a house....6 And it must continue under safeguard by YOU until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel must slaughter it between the two evenings. 7 And they must take some of the blood and splash it upon the two doorposts and the upper part of the doorway belonging to the houses in which they will eat it.
8 ‘And they must eat the flesh on this night. They should eat it roasted with fire and with unfermented cakes along with bitter greens. 9 Do not eat any of it raw or boiled, cooked in water, but roast with fire, its head together with its shanks and its interior parts. 10 And YOU must not leave any of it over till morning, but what is left over of it till morning YOU should burn with fire
Nothing suggests the beginning of the 14th. In fact, if you notice, I always say the end of the 14th, beginning of the 15th, bc evening is such a murky area. "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening." Exodus 12:18 "Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty" Exodus 23:15 "The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt." Exodus 34:18 Evening as it the end of the day, hence why its seven days. If it started at the beginning of the 14th, it would be 8 days. I gave this scripture also previously, thinking that it refered to Passover somehow, I erred in that respect, but the point is the same. Between the evenings. EXODUS 29:38 And this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs daily, sons of a year; 39 the one lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the second [hasheni] lamb you shall offer between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim]. 40 And a tenth of fine flour anointed with beaten oil, a fourth of a hin, and a drink offering, a fourth of a hin of wine, for the one lamb. 41 And you shall offer the second [hasheni] lamb between the evenings [beyn ha'arbayim]; you shall do it like the morning food offering and its drink offering, for a soothing fragrance, a fire offering to Jehovah. It refers to the time before sunset. Remember Peg, they ate in haste and on the morning of the 15th. To suggest they ate it in haste in the morning and waited around 24 hours is silly. Now remember, the Passover is eaten on the 14th. We are in agreement. 12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" It is now the day the lamb is sacrificed. He is asked where they can eat the Passover meal. The earliest this can be is 6:01 Pm (13th has ended, 14th has begun), according to you. Evening at the start of the 14th. 13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there." 16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. Passover meal is prepared. 17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me." Notice what it states. Evening came. This is the END of the day then. So its the end of the day AFTER the lambs are slain. So the Passover meal cannot have been eaten in the morning. I have to go to work. Tonight I'll try to get back to this point, your points about John (quick point in John, "eating the Passover meal" means the lamb) and Jazzns. Talk to you later.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 73 by Peg, posted 02-15-2010 9:21 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 81 by Peg, posted 02-17-2010 2:51 AM | | hERICtic has replied |
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