Passover problems in the Gospels

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You seem to be missing a few points. First, according to scripture, the lamb was killed on the 14th, Passover.

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Read the scripture carefully. Passover is the 15th. Jazzns is correct.The lamb is slaughtered at twilight on the 14th. (Exodus 12:6)
That night, which for Jews is now the next day, they were to cook and eat the meat on the 15th. (Exodus 12:8)God passed over them that night, not before twilight.The Feast of Unleavened Bread is the next day after the Passover meal. (Exodus 12:17) Passover StorySo when we look at the Book of Mark we see the author is incorrect. It was not customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.Overlooking that, Jesus was eating the Passover meal. They prepared it on the 14th and after twilight they ate the meal which is then the 15th and Passover.The Gospel of John isn't specific. Jesus could still be viewed as eating the Passover meal.The words "just before" doesn't tell us how much time. It could be a few minutes before it was served. It could be a day or two.Given that the evening meal was being served, I would say that it was the Passover meal being served. The author of John didn't go into as much detail.

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Ok, my wife is giving me dirty looks. Time to take a break. How about giving some scripture which states the lamb is killed on the 13th? I've already given plenty of scripture that it is to occur on the Passover, the 14th.

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The scripture shows the lamb is slaughtered on the 14th and Passover is on the 15th.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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I do not think Jazzns said the Passover is on the 15th.

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He didn't, but he was describing the event correctly.Jewish days go from nightfall to nightfall.Between the two evenings means between dusk and dawn.The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th. The 15th starts after dark. The lamb is eaten after dark on the 15th.The FOUB starts the morning of the 15th. Think of the Exodus story. Read the whole Exodus story.They killed the lambs at twilight and spread the blood over the door.
They cooked and ate the lamb later that evening as the horror passed over those who put blood on the door.
The next day they supposedly left so fast that they didn't have time to put leaven in their bread.

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Notice what it states. Passover is the 14th. FOUB starts on the 15th. The synoptics joined them together. Moving the FOUB a day forward.

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No the Synoptics put the FOUB on the day they slaughter the lambs.

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You originally stated Passover started on the 15th. You're contradicting yourself now. The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th, as you admitted. The 14th, as per the OT, per scripture is the Passover.

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Not really. You're making more out of the numbers than necessary for the point you're trying to make.They slaughter the passover lamb, they eat the passover meal, the FOUB starts the next day. That was the order in the OT.The tradition of reckoning the day from sunset to sunset may have been a later Jewish custom picked up from Babylon.Leviticus and sections of Exodus are priestly writings from when they were in Babylon. So the thoughts can be conflicting.Also remember in the 1st century, there were very strict rules about working on the Sabbath. More so than in the OT. Passover is considered a sabbath day.To denote the day I'm going to use 6pm to 6pm.So what Jazzns and I are saying is that on the 14th the lamb was slaughtered or sacrificed. This takes time. All the blood had to be drained out etc. Since no work was allowed on a Sabbath, they couldn't do the sacrifice and the meal preparation on the sabbath.So sometime between 6pm to 6pm on the 14th the lamb and the meal were prepared. The lamb is to be slaughtered on the 14th.6:01pm is now the 15th. The meal has to be eaten before morning. The following morning, which is still the 15th, the FOUB begins. The FOUB doesn't allow regular work supposedly.Even if they slaughtered the lamb after 6pm on the 14th and ate the Passover meal at night on the 14th and the the FOUB started after 6pm on the 15th. Jesus was still eating a Passover meal.Judaism did a lot of changing through the years while they were in exile and after the destruction of the second temple. They were influenced, just like Christianity was, by those that ruled them and the religions around them.Who knows, in the original Exodus story, day may have been reckoned from sunrise to sunrise and the lamb was sacrificed at sunset and eaten in the middle of the night and the 15th started at sunrise the next morning.But given the strict rules concerning work on the Sabbath, I would say in the first century, the Passover was probably on the 15th that started at 6pm.But, like I said, the number of the day is really irrelevant to the point you are trying to present. I feel the authors of the Synoptics and the author of John were implying that Jesus ate the Passover meal.

Ok I'm awake now. I assume this post is a reply to me and not Peg.From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?I read all the way through John and I agree that in that book Jesus did not eat the Passover meal.I disagree that Jesus was crucified on Passover day in either book.See Table for comparison of Mark and John.Although looking at Mark and John, they both say he was crucified on the Day of Preparation.Notice Mark 14. The story in Mark doesn't really give a timeline after he ate the Passover. We've assumed that all this happened quickly, but did it really? He went to the Mount of Olives before he went to Gethsemane or are those separate narratives. We don't know how much time is between the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane.If the chief priests and the teachers of the law stayed true to what they supposedly said, then they would have waited until the Feast of Unleavened Bread was finished.So in the Synoptics Jesus was able to eat the Passover meal, but Jesus probably wasn't arrested until after the FOUB was over and was crucified on a Preparation Day for the Sabbath.In the book of John it appears Jesus was crucified on a Preparation Day before the Passover.Personally, I don't think they really know. At least they agreed it was a preparation day.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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But your site states exactly what I have been saying. I tried to cut and paste, but it became a mess. Anyway, look at both charts. Remember, the 14th is Passover. Notice it states in the chart on the 14th, in the synoptics, Jesus ate his last meal. Notice it states the 15th, he is crucified. Therefore, its the day AFTER Passover. Look at John in the charts, it shows on Passover, he is killed, at noon.

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The link isn't my argument. It is just support for a portion of it and to show you the difference between the 14th and the 15th. Unfortunately, you still don't understand.I'm disagreeing with the table concerning Mark. I'm not going to get into the numbers with you, since they are irrelevant and you don't seem to understand. (The chart of Mark shows the passover on the 15th.)

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You only have two options. Either its the day before Passover or its the Passover. Either way, this contradicts the synpotics which states he was killed the day AFTER Passover.

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I agreed that in the book of John, it appears Jesus was killed before Passover. So the last supper was not the Passover meal. Yes that contradicts the Synoptics.It isn't surprising though since the book of John is a later writing and seemed to Hellenize Jesus.As I said concerning the book of Mark: If the chief priests and the teachers of the law stayed true to what they supposedly said, then they would have waited until the Feast of Unleavened Bread was finished.We don't really know the timeline in Mark. We've assumed. If they didn't do anything until after the feast, the Day of Preparation may have been for the weekly Sabbath. There could have been more than a week before Jesus was crucified.

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Does it make sense to state Jesus was killed the day before Passover or the day of?

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In the Book of John, Jesus was killed the day before the Passover Seder. Supposedly the 14th.In the Book of Mark, Jesus was killed some time after the Passover Seder if not after the FOUB.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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You and Jazzns keep stating I do not understand, but neither of you actually is using scripture to back up your arguments.

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Because you don't seem to understand that time has passed between the OT and the NT. Traditions evolved.As I said in Message 32, reckoning the day from sunset to sunset was Babylonian influence.When the priests were writing about the past, they needed to write as things were, not as they had become.So in the OT, Passover was probably eaten after dark on the 14th with the 15th starting at sunrise.In the NT, the Jews reckoned the day from sunset to sunset. The lamb still had to be slaughtered on the 14th and the Passover meal still had to be eaten between the twilights. Also in the first century, the laws about not working on a sabbath were extremely strict. The Rabbis had created a fence around the torah.As I showed in Message 22, the lamb is slaughtered at twilight in Exodus, not at noon.Also remember that in Exodus, the people slaughtered their own lambs. They didn't take them to a temple and have to wait for a priest to make the sacrifice.In the first century, it would take time for the priests to get all the lambs slaughtered and drained of blood.Also notice that in Exodus, the Israelites were supposed to pick their lamb on the 10th and take care of it until the 14th. The NT doesn't mention whether Jesus and his disciples did that or not, but in the first century, I seriously doubt if the Jews who weren't farmers had the space for a lamb, let alone the means to feed it. The Jews of the first century were supposedly vegetarian.The Passover Memorial changed to accommodate the civilization of the time. Jews today don't slaughter their own lambs, or take it to a temple, or eat the whole lamb. They serve a shank bone to represent the lamb. Some aren't even eating a lamb. So the specifics surrounding the Passover Seder can and have changed over time. Therefore, we have to look at what was going on in the first century. They may not have had a lamb sacrificed, they may have just bought enough lamb or goat for "sandwiches". The OT scripture tell us how the Passover started, but it doesn't tell us how it was practiced in the first century.In the first century, when a day was reckoned from sunset to sunset, the lamb was sacrificed on the 14th at the temple. The Passover Seder was eaten after 6pm on the 15th between the twilights.Show evidence of first century Passover traditions if you disagree with what I've said concerning the passover.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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xcept that the jews began their day from sundown to sundown.

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IOW, the 15th began at sundown.....otherwise your day is only 12 hours long.

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As I explained, the sunset to sunset was picked up while in Babylon.It probably wasn't at the time of Moses. Show me that it was at the time of Moses.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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Leviticus 23:32 "....From evening to evening YOU should observe YOUR sabbath.

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Leviticus was a priestly writing. Written after Babylonian influence.Exodus and Deuteronomy don't really make it clear if after sunset it is considered the next day. I think that is why hERICtic is getting confused.I'm not disagreeing with you concerning how the passover is eaten in the first century or when it is. I'm looking at the possibility that at the time the Exodus the Hebrews would have reckoned the day from sunrise to sunrise as the Egyptians did.The Jews have also been under sunrise to sunrise rulers since the exile and have had to adjust festivals accordingly.As I said, it really is irrelevant to his argument. We have to know what they actually did in the first century.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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I never disagreed that times do change. But the Passover is law according to god. Are you telling me Jesus violated this law and they didnt eat it on the 14th? I'm not sure why you keep bringing up sunset to sunset, I am quite aware of how the Jews kept time.

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Good grief! A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

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But as I have said over and over, the day does not matter.

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As have I, so stop arguing about it. If you keep arguing about it then show evidence of how the event was practiced in the first century.

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In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on the day the lamb is slaughtered or the beginning of the next day. The following afternoon Jesus is crucified.

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I disagree. The synoptics have Jesus crucified on a preparation day and the chief priests said they wouldn't do anything during the festival.He can't be crucified on a preparation day before a sabbath and on passover day.

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In John, Jesus eats his last meal the same day, the Passover, when he is killed.

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Are you changing your position?
From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.

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Jesus is the symbolic sacrificial lamb.

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Symbolic of what?

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

I agree that's probably the purpose of the writer.It is a shame that Christianity ruins it by also claiming he was a sacrifice for sin, since the sacrifice of the Passover lamb had nothing to do with sin. The sin issue was Paul's theme.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

I have the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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How can you disagree?

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Easy. I've explained this twice. We don't really know the time frame after Jesus ate and when he went to the Mount of Olives. Since the chief priest said they wouldn't do anything until after the feast, which would imply the FOUB and not just a meal; they would not have arrested Jesus during the feast. (Logistically, I don't think they had time to do all they supposedly did.)Since they have already eaten the Passover meal in Mark, the preparation day can't be the preparation for the Passover meal/sabbath.In the Synoptics, Jesus is not crucified at the same time as the Passover lambs.

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Not at all. I do not think that is my quote above. I think it is a partial quote, combined with someone elses.

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Slow down and read what people post. There's no excuse for not checking your own opening post to check the quote. It is your quote. Read your OP and familiarize yourself with your position.

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You're reading it as the Preparation Day for Passover. It does not say that. It states the Preparation Day of THE Passover. Big difference. The Passover was the meal with the lamb.

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There is a preparation day before Passover, just like there are preparation days before Sabbaths. But "the Passover" is the meal itself.

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You're kidding right? This is why I feel you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Not a good reputation to start.I've already agreed that Jesus did not eat the Passover meal in John.
I've already agreed that Jesus did eat the Passover meal in the Synoptics.Therefore, in the book of John, Jesus was not crucified on the Day of Passover.Looking at the Book of Mark, I think a case can be made the Jesus probably wasn't crucified on the Day of Passover either.In all four Gospels, Jesus was killed and buried on the Day of Preparation.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

My prediction is this thread is just about ready to stall. This is my last post as a participant.Your position is inconsistent and I don't really have time to play games.I have actually explained my discovery concerning the chief priests in Mark 4 times. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51, and Message 56) The point being that if the chief priests meant what they said, Jesus probably wasn't crucified on Passover, especially since he was buried on a sabbath preparation day.

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As for the synoptics,I have already stated numerous times its John, that compares Jesus to the Passover lambs. So what difference does it make in the synoptics? None. Its John that NEEDS Jesus to be the sacrifice on Passover, not in the synoptics. Heck Modulous even joined in and explained why I have said over and over in John Jesus is the symbolic lamb.

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I haven't disagreed that the lamb is an issue in the book of John. The lamb issue wasn't part of your opening post. (That's Message 1) In your opening post, your question was whether Jesus ate the Passover meal in the book of John.

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This is what you accused me of saying:

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Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John?
Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.

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Here is my actual quote, refer back to post 1:

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Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?

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This is what I wrote in Message 51. The italicized portion is from your OP and is exactly what you quoted above. The next paragraph is mine and not attributed to you.When you quoted them in Message 55, you ran them together.

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I have stated my point since post 1, John could not have eaten the Passover meal.

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I assume you mean Jesus and I have already agreed several times that in the book of John, Jesus does not appear to have eaten the Passover meal. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51 and Message 56)Apology not extended.

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Now do you understand why I have a hard time following you?

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Join the club! Good Day.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

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I was not going to respond to later, but I have a few minutes. The reason we are at an impasse is that using scripture, it states the Passover is the 14th. I have given plenty of scripture to show this.

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In fact, PD, Peg and anyone else I have ever debated has agreed to this. Site after site, dealing with the OT, states this.

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No I haven't. Please don't use me as support for your confusion.

The kicker is that the Passover as a celebration to memorialize the Exodus wasn't celebrated for over 700 years. (2 Chronicles 35:18) Probably because the ceremony wasn't set up until the priestly writings.From the Jewish Virtual Library on Passover in the Critical View section we see that the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread began separately. It is interesting to note that the Passover was a nomadic custom later attached to the Exodus. The reference in Joshua may be referring to the nomadic custom and not the Exodus custom. Food for thought.Even the Feast of Unleavened Bread was not originally attached to Passover. A little probable reality behind the story. So the month was originally called Abib but was changed to Nissan in the Exile.It's obvious that the Synoptics and the author of John differ on when Jesus died. John had his purpose for placing the crucifixion at the time the animals were sacrificed. It fit with the imagery of his theme.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion