Passover problems in the Gospels

In the synpotics, it seems to suggest that Jesus ate the Passover meal, while in John, he could not. Although inferred in the synpotics, an argument can be made that he never did. But there lies another problem. Before I can get to that issue, I need to clarify that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal.JOHN 13 1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.Its now before the Passover feast...JOHN 13:21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me. 26 . . . It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it." And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, "What you do, do quickly." 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, "Buy those things we need for the Feast," or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night. (NKJV)This could not be the Passover meal, since instructions are given to Judas to buy items for the Passover, which is the feast.JOHN 18:28 Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the Praetorium, and it was early morning. But they themselves did not go into the Praetorium, lest they should be defiled, but that they might eat the Passover.This verse states those leading Jesus, in the morning were to still eat the Passover, which was an evening meal.The issue I am addressing tends to get very convoluted, so I want to make sure everyone is one the same page.Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover?Thanks.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

So I put all that work in. Locate the scriptures. Edit it three times due to some errors.And you sum it up with a video in two seconds. Damn.

Christians falls back upon the synoptics and claim Jesus didnt eat the Passover meal either. Of course, its heavily inferred. But arguing that point is fruitless bc they fall back on, "Does it actually say its a Passover meal?" and you have no choice but to say, "No." The problem though, is that its two different days. This is not disputable.In John, Jesus is upon the cross ON Passover. Therefore, his last evening meal could only be the day before, Passover Eve.In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on Passover and is killed the next day. Regardless if he ate the meal or called it something else (as apologists like to say), its crystal clear: Jesus ate his last meal ON Passover, killed the next day.So basically, I'm debating you, someone who agrees with me. Im waiting for you to throw up another video, but half as long, but twice as informative.

I agree.

quote:

---

In John, Jesus is upon the cross ON Passover.

---

Nope. Its a sin to be on the cross on the Sabbath.John 19: 31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.John 18: 28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.Remember, evening starts a new day. So here we have morning, which means the day has already begun about 12 hours earlier. Notice what it states-they wanted to eat the Passover meal. Therefore, now is the Passover. Jesus has not been killed yet. His death occurs in the afternoon-which means its the Passover

quote:

---

In the synoptics, Jesus eats his last meal on Passover and is killed the next day.

---

You are correct on one thing...it does not make sense in John. But it clearly states its the Passover. You brought up another problem as to why the story seems implausible. But the fact remains, its the Passover. In John, yes his last meal is on the eve of Passover, but the death of Jesus is on the Passover. In the synoptics, its clearly stated it IS the Passover when Jesus has his last meal.

Hello again. If Jesus ate his last meal on Passover Eve, this means its the day BEFORE the Passover. Correct? If Jesus was killed AFTER the Eve, that would place it the next day. Correct?
Jesus was killed during the afternoon AFTER the last meal. If the last meal was in the evening on Passover Eve (as we both have stated), then the next day, noon, would be Passover.You need to reread the scripture I gave. It does not say they wanted Jesus off the cross bc it was before the Passover, it states it was before the Sabbath.Here is some scripture again.John 13: "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, 28but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.This is the last meal of Jesus. His followers thought Judas was going to take the money and purchase that which was needed for the Passover meal. So again, Passover has not occured yet.Jesus is arrested after the his last meal (which occured in the evening, which we both stated was Passover Eve). He is brought before Annas.
John 18: 28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning-Once the sun goes down, a new day begins. Evening, darkness, morning, evening again. This is a day. Jesus ate his meal in the evening...its is now morning. Which means its the next day.-and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. 29So Pilate came out to them and asked, "What charges are you bringing against this man?"Notice how it states the Passover was not eaten yet. If the last meal of Jesus was on the Passover Eve, the very next evening meal would be the Passover feast.Remember, the lambs were slaughtered ON the Passover.Mark 14: 12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"We know its the Passover bc it states the lambs were killed on this day.13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."Jesus sends his disciples to prepare the Passover meal.16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.They prepared the Passover.17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."This is the last meal of Jesus, on the Passover. Its evening, so in a few hours, it will be a new day. The trial and the death of Jesus occur after the following morning...so its the day AFTER the Passover.The reason Jesus is called the lamb of god in John, is bc the author was comparing Jesus to the sacrificial lamb. Both were killed around noon. That in itself is a dead giveaway that it is the Passover in John.

Jazzns,Before we go any further, we need to establish when Passover is.I believe we are using two terms in a different manner.By the Eve of Passover, I mean the evening meal prior to the Passover evening meal. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies. My apologies if I was not clear. In other words, the Passover meal was eaten on Passover, in the evening. The prior evening, Jesus ate his last meal in John.But lets clarify when Passover is.Passover is the 14th, scripture backs this up. Its an 8 day festivel. Passover, one day, followed by seven more days of the Feast of Unleavened bread.This should help: OnlineTruth - Online Truth | Product Reviews | Gadgets | Technology Passover - WikipediaSo to clear everything up, here is my posistion.Passover is the 14th.The lamb was slain on Passover. Scripture backs this up. Josephus and Philo state this.Are we now in agreement? Please tell me if you are in disagreement with anything stated. If not, also let me know.Once we both are in agreement as to when Passover is, when the lamb is slain, I'll address your other issues.Thanks.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.Edited by hERICtic, : Added points...

We know its the Passover bc it states the lambs were killed on this day. Ok...I had to jump on this. First, there lies a problem with scripture. The Feast of Unleavened Bread was not when the lambs were sacrificed. The Feast started on the 15th. After the temple was destroyed, both the first day of Passover and the first day of the FOUB were combined. So just using this scripture you can "time" when this was written. After 70. Just thought I would add that in. Second, scripture above clearly states WHEN the lambs were killed. You tell me I'm incorrect, when in fact you're arguing with the scripture.What does the scripture state? First day of FOUB, lambs killed. The FOUB occurs after Passover in scripture. So obviously, its been moved up a day, to the Passover. So in effect, its stating the lambs were killed ON the Passover.To make this more clear. According to you, the lambs were slain the day BEFORE the Passover. So using the scripture above, which states the lambs were slain on the FOUB, you're saying this is the same day as the Eve of Passover? When is the Passover then?

quote:

---

To make this more clear. According to you, the lambs were slain the day BEFORE the Passover.

---

You seem to be missing a few points. First, according to scripture, the lamb was killed on the 14th, Passover.Exodus 12:6, Leviticus 23:5, 2Chronicles 35:1Second, when the lamb was slain has no bearing on our debate. Its when Jesus ate his last meal. In the synoptics, its on Passover.Matthew 26:17On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"Notice the Passover meal was not eaten yet.18He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.Jesus makes it clear he wishes to eat the Passover. We know its the Passover because:The FOUB is either AFTER the Passover or combined. If you wish to make it after the Passover, it screws up the timing even more so. Most likely, they are combined, which means the FOUB is on the same day as the Passover.20When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me."Here is the last meal of Jesus. When? On Passover. It is not the day before Passover, its on Passover. Remember, it clearly states he ate his last meal on the FOUB. You state this last meal was the day before the Passover. Since it states its the FOUB, then the only conclusion from your train of thought, is that the FOUB is on the same day as the day BEFORE the Passover. This makes no sense.Luke also backs this up.22: 1Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, 2and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."Notice again. When is the lamb slain? On this very day. What is this day? The FOUB, which is the Passover. So, the lamb was slain on Passover.Not only do all three synoptics state this, its backed by OT scripture. Again, Jesus tells his followers to prepare the Passover. After its prepared, he has his last meal.Regardless if you wish to call his last meal a Passover meal, its still the same- Jesus was killed on the day AFTER Passover.How do we know? Bc after they prepare the Passover, its evening. After evening starts the next day. Jesus is killed the next day. Wrong. The lambs are slain on the 14th! The Passover. Again, here is Luke 22:7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."It is the Passover. Its not the day before the Passover, it is the Passover. Since we know Jesus ate his last meal on Passover, then morning came, it means its the next day. Jesus was killed the day after the Passover.Lets go back to Mark 14:12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"We know its the Passover. Not the day before, but the Passover. We also know the lambs were slain on this day according to the synoptics.13So he sent two of his disciples, telling them, "Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him. 14Say to the owner of the house he enters, 'The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 15He will show you a large upper room, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there."Work is done to prepare the Passover.16The disciples left, went into the city and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.17When evening came, Jesus arrived with the Twelve. 18While they were reclining at the table eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray meone who is eating with me."Notice what it states. Evening came. So know a few things:1) Lamb is slain prior to evening.
2) Jesus tells his followers to prepare the Passover meal.
3) Logically, the meal they then eat is the Passover. But lets gloss over that. Jesus prepares for his last meal.
40 Then EVENING came. Now, anything after this point is another day. Up until this point, scripture clearly states the lamb was killed, therefore its Passover. The next day Jesus is killed.

quote:

---

So using the scripture above, which states the lambs were slain on the FOUB, you're saying this is the same day as the Eve of Passover?

---

I am not confused at all. You're admitting Mark (as well as the synoptics) makes a mistake, then you ignore what they state. The synoptics make it clear: Lamb was killed on Passover. In fact, you're ignoring scripture which clearly states the lamb was killed on the 14th, which is the Passover. The OT is clear on this. I gave you the verses. Twice. A sin to slay the lamb on Passover? Not only does scripture contradict you, Josephus and Philo also state the lambs were slain on the 14th, which is the Passover, but so does every Jewish site I have gone to.

quote:

---

When is the Passover then?

---

Which again goes against scripture, against Josephus and Philo and every Jewish site I have read. Maybe this will help:LOM Loans – Financial information and loan guides.Ok, my wife is giving me dirty looks. Time to take a break. How about giving some scripture which states the lamb is killed on the 13th? I've already given plenty of scripture that it is to occur on the Passover, the 14th.Bye.

Hi. Purple? Dawn? I do not think Jazzns said the Passover is on the 15th.But to address your point- Passover is not the 15th. Maybe using todays time frame, midnight. But to the Jews, it was the 14th.From the site you gave:In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings is the LORD'S Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. And ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days; in the seventh day is a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. (Leviticus 23:5)Notice what it states. Passover is the 14th. FOUB starts on the 15th. The synoptics joined them together. Moving the FOUB a day forward. I agree 100%. Normally, the lamb is not slain on the FOUB, yet the authors not only make that claim, they also state its the Passover!Luke 22: 7Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."The bottom line is that Jesus ate his last meal on the day the lamb was slain. The lamb is slain on the 14th, which is the Passover.

PD,You originally stated Passover started on the 15th. You're contradicting yourself now. The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th, as you admitted. The 14th, as per the OT, per scripture is the Passover.We are getting into semantics here. Jesus could have eaten his last meal late 14th or early 15th. It does not matter.The point is that his followers prepared his last meal on the 14th, on the day of Passover, the day the lamb is slaughtered, per the synoptics. The OT, clearly states the 14th is the first day of Passover.Once evening is starts, a new day begins. So the lamb is slaughtered before the evening-sometime during whatever hour you choose, Passover. Evening arrives, new day. Next morning comes, afternoon arrives- Jesus is killed. This would be the day after Passover.In John, Jesus is killed on Passover.

Not sure if you are stating the meal they are eating is the Passover meal or that they are going to observe it in the future. The meal they were having could not have been a Passover one, since his followers assumed he was taking the money to buy what was needed for Passover.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

Peg,Jesus in John is called the lamb of god. Why? He symbolizes the lamb. He is killed when the lambs are killed, noon. When are the lambs killed? On Passover.John 19: 13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.The day of Preparation for the Passover, is the Passover. They prepare the lambs.Jumping back a second...Also, John 18: 28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.Here, it clearly states they Passover has not been eaten. Obviously then, its the day of the Passover.Simple question. Jesus is called the lamb of god. Does it make more sense to state he was symbolically the lamb of god the day after the lambs were killed or the day of the lambs being killed?Thanks.Off to work.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

You're confusing what Jazzns stated, then arguing with me about something I agree with, concering your viewpoint. Remember, you stated Passover is the 15th. I think you meant to state they ate the last meal on the 15th. Its a moot point. Prepareing the lambs is not work. Heck, the OT clearly states this is when the lamb is to be slaughtered. I even gave the scripture from the OT as well as the NT which states its the Passover, the lambs are being killed. Thats not what Jazzsn is saying. He clearly states a few times after Jesus eats his last meal, that the next morning is STILL the eve of Passover. Hes placing the last meal the day BEFORE the Passover, trying to reconcile it with John. Jazzns is arguing opposite of what Peg is. LOL! I agree with all this! I stated it does not matter if you wish to call it the 14th or the 15th. I clearly stated Jesus was killed the day AFTER Passover. Thats my entire point. You agree with me that the lambs were killed, its Passover. The next day Jesus is crucified.Jazzns is saying Jesus was killed on the Passover.I do disagree with you on the aspect that you keep saying its the 15th, when the OT clearly states it must be on the 14th. Using todays time, it would be the 15th. But again, a moot point.

Im off to work, so I will address this one issue. You're creating a strawman to begin with. My entire point is to show Jesus ate his last meal AFTER the lambs were slaughtered. In John, the lambs are not slaughtered yet, bc its a different day. Thats the debate. You are focusing on an issue which has no bearing on what we are talking about. But lets take a look for one second. A few things occur as to why you are confused. First, TODAY, Passover from my understanding is on the 15th. So you can keep giving sites all you want it has nothing to do with the time of Jesus. Second, we've already established why its the 15th, for two reasons. Some sites use OUR reckoning of time, midnight. Also, after 70, the days were combined (FOUB ,Passover) which may have placed it on the 15th. When Jesus was eating his last meal, this occurs before 70. Scripture clearly states its the 14th. Last but not least, you're not understanding the site I gave.The "Passover" is the meal he is refering to. Not the actual day. The entire site I gave is arguing the point if the lamb was killed in the beginning of the 14th or later in the day. He states it was killed later in the day. On the 14th.In fact, right off away he gives scripture which states:"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight (erev) in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the LORD had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5What does it state? The 14th is the Passover. This is exactly as I said. The 14th is Passover. The rest of the site tries to determine when the lambs were slaughtered. At the beginning or near the end.Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.

PD, I have the same site. Havent read it in awhile, have to do some digging to find it again...But your site states exactly what I have been saying. I tried to cut and paste, but it became a mess. Anyway, look at both charts. Remember, the 14th is Passover. Notice it states in the chart on the 14th, in the synoptics, Jesus ate his last meal. Notice it states the 15th, he is crucified. Therefore, its the day AFTER Passover. Look at John in the charts, it shows on Passover, he is killed, at noon. That does get confusing bc it means multiple things. It can mean the day before the Passover, the Passover and the day before the Sabbath. Preparation day is just that, a day of preparing.But in John: 19: 14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!You only have two options. Either its the day before Passover or its the Passover. Either way, this contradicts the synpotics which states he was killed the day AFTER Passover.John 13: 1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.2And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;Now, an argument can be made that "before the feast" can mean right before dinner is eaten, bc verse two states supper is finally over.I have no problem with this.But in verse: 27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.29For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.His disciples are unsure of what Jesus is refering to in regards to Judas, they think perhaps he is instructing Judas to buy items for the feast. Now why would they think that if they already ate the feast? They ate a normal supper, the next night was to be the Passover meal.Also, in John, Jesus is called the Lamb of god. He is symbolically the sacrifical lamb. He is slain at noon, as were the lambs.Does it make sense to state Jesus was killed the day before Passover or the day of?