Spirituality

I've tried to sift through your post to find on-topic things about spirituality. And about the "difference" I've been asking you to show between "true" (from-God) spirituality and atheistical spirituality. I actually agree with the sentiment of both these things you talk about here. The only thing I would do is delete "Christ" and replace it with "knowledge."Jesus Christ is not necessary in order to learn how to be spiritual and grow in moral character. The only thing that is necessary for such a thing is the knowledge to do do so. Some can uncover that knowledge on their own through reflection of their own experiences. Some can get that knowledge from talks with their parents and friends.So... if both get to the exact same destination (spirituality) and one uses Jesus Christ, and another uses knowledge from others and their own experiences... what's the difference?This is what I'm saying. There is no difference. Or, at least, you have yet to describe one. Jesus Christ is one way to being spiritual, he most certainly is not the only way and definitely not the best way for everyone. But this is simply untrue.I don't even believe in "a real God"... and I have no seperation between myself and the spiritual life. Or, at least, you have yet to describe one.So, again, what's the difference between "true" (God-given) spirituality and atheistical spirituality. So far, they're exactly the same other than your claim that true spirituality comes from God. But, even then, the "true" spirituality from God Himself is exactly the same as the atheistical spirituality available to all humans.There is no difference.

I don't think anyone is asking for "mathematical certainty" about the reality of the spiritual realm.However, I don't think we need to wait for time to tell. I believe that time has already told. ...or telled. wait... son-of-a... I believe that we can already see the results If we look at history, we can see plenty of people who are Christians and God-fearing folk who were very spiritual in their lives. They had a moral fibre that very few would disagree with. They always seemed calm and thoughtful. They didn't seem afraid of the unknown. They always had a smile and beneficial feeling about them, it was as if they were immune to ever being overwhelmed by life's negative aspects.But, of course, if we look at history we also see plenty of atheists and those of other non-Christian-God religions that equally shared all these qualities. In fact, there doesn't exist one certain sect of people that has a monopoly on such spiritual matters. There doesn't exist a select group that seems granted with any spiritual aspects that are unavailable to all others.You may be correct that some future awaits a select group who are spiritual in a select way.
You may be correct that some unidentifiable aspect of spirituality exists that is only available to a select group.But, it is a fact of history and the present day that there is no verifiable indication of any such future (unless you can provide one?), and obviously any unidentifiable aspect is irrelevent anyway. If we cannot identify a difference, then how can we say that such a "difference" would be beneficial? In order to say that something is worthy of pursuing, it needs to be identifiably different from whatever else it is we're comparing it to. Otherwise, it's no different from chasing our imaginations for ghosts that don't actually exist.

I have no quarral with this statement or the rest of your post. I fully understand that you whole-heartedly believe in God and the Bible and that your Christian life has led you towards a very spiritual nature.All I'm saying is that many others have also found routes to the very same spiritual nature. Some of them did not require God, the Bible, or the Christian life in any way. I hope you're not misunderstanding me. I do not intend any illwill towards the spirituality of Christianity. I certainly do not want to put it "to shame" in any way. I'm just saying that if we take the observations available to us from the present day and all of human history, we can see that Christians do not have any sort of monopoly on spirituality in any discernable way.This is not saying that Christian spirituality is negative, or somehow lessened. It's just saying that others can achieve equivalent spiritual natures through other paths.Your continued stories of how fantastic and awesome Christian spirituality is have no effect on what I'm saying. I agree with you that Christian spirituality is indeed fantastic and awesome. What I'm asking is if you are able to show how Christian spirituality is fantastic and awesome in a way that non-Christian spirituality cannot be. You have yet to even attempt answering this question.So far, of all observation on spirituality throughout human history, we see that all people are capable of fantastic and awesome things. No select group of specific people (such as Christians or atheists or Bhuddists or whatever) have ever shown that they are somehow seperated or "beyond" in a spiritual sense. They are all observed to be equivalent.To deny such an easily observed fact, and hold that Christians are indeed somehow more-spiritual than others; yet continue to refrain from showing any results of such a claimed higher-spirituality... is something that could be seen as a bit unspiritual in and of itself.But, perhaps you are no longer saying that Christians are, actually, more-spiritual than others?
Your last post seemed to be about defending Christian spirituality in general. I just want to point out that no one is refuting that Christian spirituality certainly is fantastic and awesome for some (even most?) of those who invest within it.

I wasn't trying to say anything about Christian life. As the topic of this thread, and my post, was about spirituality... I was only attempting to comment on Christian spirituality. I assumed it was understood that no one is undergoing spiritual "highs" at all times. Okay.Do you have a point about the topic we're attempting to discuss here?No one is debating over the truth of other religions, or even the truth of the Christian religion. No one's talking about basic religious truth at all. We're trying to have a discussion about spirituality.I was under the impression that you believe Christians have some sort of better-spirituality (in some way) than atheists and other non-Christians alike.I don't know how else to put this so I'll just repost what I said at the end of my last message:

quote:

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No select group of specific people (such as Christians or atheists or Bhuddists or whatever) have ever shown that they are somehow seperated or "beyond" in a spiritual sense. They are all observed to be equivalent.

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In the face of such glaring facts, how can anyone promote that some select group is actually "spiritually better" then any other group without showing some sort of discernable difference?But, perhaps you are no longer saying that Christians are, actually, more-spiritual than others?
Your last post seems to be about defending Christian life in general. Such a thing may be an interesting topic, but it has no bearing on whether or not Christians have some sort of beneficial spiritual aspect that is unavailable to other humans.

Yes, I agree that this is exactly what we have.What I am saying is that your "feeling" that the atheist spirituality is somehow lesser than the "believer in Christ's sprituality's" spirituality, has no impact on reality.It is my "feeling" that these two are equivalent. Where does that leave us?If you are going to claim that one is better, you are going to have to describe how you think it is better.So far, you keep saying things like: But I don't think you understand that you simply saying so doesn't make any of this true.I can just as easily say:Christ is not unique.
I do not withdraw from God or want to replace God.
Christ is not a beneficial aspect.
Humanistic magnimousness is open and fair.
The love of Christ is not as open or fair as humanism.You see? Saying things doesn't do anything. Your continued bare statements do not actually constitute any valid reasoning to accept that they are actually true about reality. This is a very true statement.Of course, me saying that you have no spiritual discernment is just as valid as you saying I have none. Without you showing a difference between yourself and myself, this is still just your imagination. If you cannot show a difference between you and I, then we cannot determine which of us "has no spiritual discernment," or even if such a disability exists.Our rhetoric has boild down to this:"Christian spirituality is better than atheist spirituality."
"No, I don't think it is, I think the two are equal."
"You're wrong, Christian spirituality is unique and superior."
"Oh? Is that so? Can you show me how?"
"No. I won't show you how. You wouldn't understand."Really??This sounds like a bully Grade 8 kid trying to pull one over on a gullible kindergartner.
Is this really what you think is a valid method of convincing other people?The bottom line is if you are unable to show the difference between Christian spirituality and atheist spirituality, all rational observers are forced to conclude that you do not actually know of any difference. You're just talking about your imagination.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to discuss.We can't tell if what you're saying is imagination or not.
Maybe you're incorrect and it's just your imagination.
Maybe you're correct and saying your incorrect is just my imagination.
We can't tell.
We can't tell because you have yet to describe a difference between what you're claiming to be true and what could quite possibly be nothing more than your imagination.That's why: Because we cannot tell the difference between just saying things, and pure imagination. Exactly.And, to put a very high premium on something as important as "divine facts" and then simply state them such that there is no method to differentiate them from pure imagination seems rather irresponsible. Don't you think?If these divine statements are so important, why is there no way to differentiate them from pure imagination?
If these divine statements are so ingrained within reality, why is there no area of reality that reflects these divine statments? Why must they simply "just say so?"It may very well be true. But, just as easily, it may very well all be pure imagination.If there is a way to differentiate between the two, please inform me. That is what I've been asking for over the last 50 messages.Many, many people certainly agree and believe you. We'll call them "Christians." It is a fact that you are claiming these Christians are somehow blessed with an aspect of humanity (spirituality) that non-Christians are incapable of.However, all verifiable observations throughout human history on such a concept have been unable to discover even the tiniest difference between Christian spirituality and non-Christian spirituality.So, I'll ask again, why do you expect me to take your word for it that there is a difference, when I can look for myself and obviously see that one does not exist? Can you explain to me what this difference is that I may be missing? Can you show it to me? Can you show what I'm missing that is blocking my ability to understand whatever difference it is that you haven't mentioned yet?You have so far recounted many, many different scenarios including Christian spirituality. However, not a single one of them includes some aspect of human nature that is unavailable to an atheist. Perhaps you could pick your best or favourite scenario which you think clearly shows an ability that Christian spirituality includes that atheist spirituality does not?

No problem. The good thing about message boards is that the messages don't disappear. It'll be there tomorrow, and the next week or month. Reply whenever you have time. Oh. You mean like what I actually did say? As quoted: Well, since I did, in fact, say such a thing. I'll take this answer as your reply.In which case, we don't have to wait for time to tell. It's already told us what we need to know: If you're saying that we'll have to wait for new information in order to decide if your baseless statments, which contradict all known observations, are reality or imagination... then I know what I'm going to think in the meantime.