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Author Topic:   Spirituality
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 1 of 141 (516139)
07-23-2009 3:08 PM


Now that my "sin" topic has gotten some traffic and corrected some of my misgivings about Christian views on sin, I would like another religion-related question answered:
What does "spiritual" mean?
I have listened to hundreds of people talk about spirituality, and everybody except me seems to know what is being talked about.
For instance, in a wellness class that was required at BYU, it was briefly mentioned that there were some number of "areas of wellness," which included "mental," "emotional," and "spiritual" as three distinct concepts. I would personally have thought that mental and emotional essentially covered the spiritual thing.
Furthermore, I have often heard non-religious people and atheists talk about spiritual experiences; and non-religious experiences being described as spiritual by all kinds of people.
Is spirituality only a religious concept? Or is it broader than that?
What could it possibly mean outside of religious thinking?
Is there anything real about it? Or is it just a poetic way of viewing the world?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 27 by Dr Jack, posted 07-27-2009 9:41 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 141 (516184)
07-23-2009 8:29 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Spirituality thread in the Faith and Belief forum.

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 3 of 141 (516237)
07-24-2009 9:08 AM


nice topic bluejay,
the apostle Paul had alot to say about what true spirituality is. He explained the difference between a physical man, that is, a person who follows the impulses of the flesh, and a spiritual man, a person who cherishes spiritual things
He also showed that Jesus was a living example of a spiritual person and said to be spiritual ourselves we must have "the mind of Christ" 1Corinthians 2:14-16
The qualities that Jesus possessed were what really marked him as a spiritual person. Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruitage of the spirit is "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control." These are real qualities that many people possess to a certain degree. The degree that we display such qualities will show the degree of our spirituality.
so basically, a spiritual person is one who is guided by Gods spirit and acts in accord with the fruitage of that spirit. Everyone is capable of it because we are made in Gods image and we all possess the ability to display his qualities in ourselves if we chose.
And just to add to that, its not always easy becuase we have a battle with our physical person.... if we allow the physical person to dominate us, then the spiritual person will be stifled. But if we stifle the physical person, then the spiritual one can shine through.
Easier said then done of course. lol

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 3:42 PM Peg has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 4 of 141 (516241)
07-24-2009 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blue Jay
07-23-2009 3:08 PM


Spiritual Confusion
Hi Bluejay,
quote:
What does "spiritual" mean?
I have absolutely no idea.
quote:
I have listened to hundreds of people talk about spirituality, and everybody except me seems to know what is being talked about.
I'm not sure they do. Most of the answers you will get to your question are likely to be inconsistent and contradictory. Generally, the term seems to mean very different things to different people. I find it confusing and unhelpful.
Here is the Free Online Dictionary's definition;
spiritual
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
Now I understand definitions 1, 3 and 4 but they are clearly not the ones that atheists are using. I guess they make sense for theists. 5 is, I think, what people mean when they utter the dreaded phrase "I'm not religious, but I'm a very spiritual person." which I usually take to mean "I don't care for organised religion, but I am still desperate or credulous enough to believe in the various kinds of New Age woo that I happen to find appealing.". It's a phrase that seems to be associated with often vague notions of deism or pantheism.
quote:
I have often heard non-religious people and atheists talk about spiritual experiences; and non-religious experiences being described as spiritual by all kinds of people.
I think the the closest thing to the term as used by non-theists (who do not believe in the supernatural) is definition 2, "Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.". Now this is obviously perfectly meaningful for someone who believes in a soul, that's straightforward. What I think is that those who don't believe in a soul are doing is using the concept in a poetic sense.
Example; the popular phrase "confession is good for the soul". It makes sense in a literal context (especially if you're Catholic!). In a looser, metaphorical sense, it just means "confession will make you feel better, help tackle unresolved feelings of guilt and make you an emotionally healthier person". Since the latter version is more complex and doesn't really have an associated vocabulary that can be quickly and easily applied, we use the shorthand version - soul. It is standing in for entirely secular emotional and psychological concepts.
One popular use of the term "spiritual" is to describe especially meaningful or transcendent moments. The feeling of joy one gets from climbing a mountain and looking out from its peak, or the feeling of being caught up in an especially moving piece of music are good examples.
I think we are caught in something of a linguistic trap here. these kinds of moments have, throughout most of human history, been associated with religion, gods or the supernatural. Any sense of the transcendent has had these associations placed upon it and, culturally speaking it is hard to escape from them, even when we are now able to de-couple these emotional states from a religious context that never made much sense in the first place.
There is a sense amongst some atheists that we should be trying to make a distinction between this sense of transcendence and the supernatural. Christopher Hitchens has suggested the use of the word "numinous" to make this distinction. I think this is a good idea, because it seems to me that theists (and any non-theists who nonetheless ascribe to a sense of the supernatural) need to know that even those of us who have no belief in gods or magic still have these moments of transcendence. The sense of the numinous is not lost for atheists, it's just different and not associated with any explicit religious notion.
I think that's important because many potential apostates may worry that they are going to lose these feelings, which they (quite rightly) value, if they abandon their religion. They're not. we all feel this way sometimes and there is no requirement to believe in any supernatural entity.
That's my take for now. Hope it helps.
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blue Jay, posted 07-23-2009 3:08 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 5 of 141 (516258)
07-24-2009 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blue Jay
07-23-2009 3:08 PM


What does "spiritual" mean?
I don't believe in a soul, nor do I believe in spirits, but I have, at times, considered myself spiritual. To me, it sort of means, recognizing and promoting the health of the non-physical aprts of us.
I guess in that context, I would say spiritual is the sum of mental and emotional. Or maybe, the rational and emotional.
I would personally have thought that mental and emotional essentially covered the spiritual thing.
I would agree, but throwing as many "buzz words" as you can in an advertisement, or putting as many descriptors in a class description is understandable. There are some people who would never look twice at a class dealing only with "spirituality" and others who would never really consider going to a class devoted only to the "mental" or the "emotional." By listing all three, you cast a wider net.
Is there anything real about it? Or is it just a poetic way of viewing the world?
IMHO it's definitely just a poetic way of talking about the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blue Jay, posted 07-23-2009 3:08 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 3:50 PM Perdition has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 6 of 141 (516262)
07-24-2009 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blue Jay
07-23-2009 3:08 PM


Spiritual Atheist
Bluejay writes:
Is spirituality only a religious concept? Or is it broader than that?
Spirituality is a basic concept. Religion has accosted it and attempted to build a monopoly on it. But it can't, 'cause it's tough fighting reality.
What could it possibly mean outside of religious thinking?
Let me explain using Peg's Message 3.
Peg writes:
Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruitage of the spirit is "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control." These are real qualities that many people possess to a certain degree. The degree that we display such qualities will show the degree of our spirituality.
so basically, a spiritual person is one who is guided by Gods spirit and acts in accord with the fruitage of that spirit. Everyone is capable of it because we are made in Gods image and we all possess the ability to display his qualities in ourselves if we chose.
Basically, Peg's right in that spirituality is "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control." Spirituality is all those virtues that we generally associate with the term.
Actually, I'm rather confused by the addition of "long-suffering" in there. That one doesn't make any sense to me. It makes me start singing Sesame Street songs: "One of these things just doesn't belong...", but hopefully the main point is there.
Where Peg (and most religions) mess up is Peg's second paragraph. For no reason at all they jump to a conclusion that these things are a result of being "guided by God's spirit" or some other nonsense. The fact is that all these attributes are available to all humans regardless of their beliefs. An atheist can be just as spiritual, or even more spiritual then a theist. It all depends on how "in tune" they are with the actual qualities, and nothing to do with how much they believe in their specific deities of choice. Spirituality is an inherent part of simply being human (having intelligence?) it does not come "from God" or any other external force/entity.
Is there anything real about it? Or is it just a poetic way of viewing the world?
Heh.
My answer is that spirituality is as real as poetry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blue Jay, posted 07-23-2009 3:08 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Stile, posted 07-24-2009 11:23 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 10 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 4:05 PM Stile has replied
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:47 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 7 of 141 (516264)
07-24-2009 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
07-24-2009 11:20 AM


Trying to be clever
Saying that spirituality is only available through God is like saying driving is only available through Ford.
Each one may have popularized the usage in North America, but neither is the only, or best, method.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 07-24-2009 11:20 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 8 of 141 (516324)
07-24-2009 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
07-24-2009 9:08 AM


Four responders, four different answers.
Hi, Peg.
If I could sum up your post, I would say that you equate "spirituality" with "moral purity," or some similar concept.
So, from that BYU wellness class, "spiritual wellness" would be referring to a healthy moral code. I think I can buy that: emotion, intelligence and ethics are three distinct things.
The problem I see comes up here:
Peg writes:
He explained the difference between a physical man, that is, a person who follows the impulses of the flesh, and a spiritual man, a person who cherishes spiritual things.
You used the word "spiritual" in your definition of the word "spiritual." I assume you're not intentionally creating a circular definition, so you must be using the word "spiritual" in two different ways: one to describe a certain class of "things," and one to describe people who like those "things."
So, I know what makes a person spiritual in your view, but what makes a thing spiritual?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 9:08 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:26 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 9 of 141 (516328)
07-24-2009 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Perdition
07-24-2009 10:59 AM


Spiritual = Rational + Emotional = "Mind"?
Hi, Perdition.
Perdition writes:
I guess in that context, I would say spiritual is the sum of mental and emotional. Or maybe, the rational and emotional.
That's what I would think.
How do you think the concept of a "spirit" relates to the concept of "consciousness?"
Bad Joke: So, in religion, if a person's spirit is just their rational and emotional "programming," when God said He is going to "save" us, He must have meant "on a hard drive."
-----
Perdition writes:
I would agree, but throwing as many "buzz words" as you can in an advertisement, or putting as many descriptors in a class description is understandable.
It sounds like Fox News to me: "You can trust me. See? I have a pie chart."
Edited by Bluejay, : No reason given.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Perdition, posted 07-24-2009 10:59 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 10 of 141 (516332)
07-24-2009 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
07-24-2009 11:20 AM


Re: Spiritual Atheist
Hi, Stile.
Stile writes:
Basically, Peg's right in that spirituality is "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control." Spirituality is all those virtues that we generally associate with the term.
You and Peg both seem to equate "spiritual" with "virtuous."
This is obviously in reference to people, and not to experiences or things.
When I hear people describe spiritual experiences, it seems like they're just talking about strong, positive emotions in a poetic way. For instance:
"Swimming with the dolphins was a very spiritual experience for me."
I personally have little taste for poetry, so people who talk like the above always come of an extremely fake and fluffy. Does this make me a non-spiritual person?
It seems that this may be a case of people associating powerful, emotional experiences with moral integrity, perhaps because moral integrity is thought to bring about powerful, emotional experiences.
Edited by Bluejay, : No reason given.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 07-24-2009 11:20 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 11 of 141 (516338)
07-24-2009 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Blue Jay
07-24-2009 3:50 PM


Re: Spiritual = Rational + Emotional = "Mind"?
How do you think the concept of a "spirit" relates to the concept of "consciousness?"
They could be considered equivalent, I suppose. Though people talk about mental health and emotional health, but rarely have I heard anyone worry about their "consciousnessal" health, so maybe not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 3:50 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 12 of 141 (516377)
07-24-2009 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Blue Jay
07-24-2009 3:42 PM


Re: Four responders, four different answers.
bluejay writes:
The problem I see comes up here:
Peg writes:
He explained the difference between a physical man, that is, a person who follows the impulses of the flesh, and a spiritual man, a person who cherishes spiritual things.
You used the word "spiritual" in your definition of the word "spiritual." I assume you're not intentionally creating a circular definition, so you must be using the word "spiritual" in two different ways: one to describe a certain class of "things," and one to describe people who like those "things."
So, I know what makes a person spiritual in your view, but what makes a thing spiritual?
Ah yes your right, that does sound like a circular definition...rereading it I should have said
'a spiritual person is one who cherishes the things they cannot see'
The things pertaining to God are all unseen as are the things we do for others, and therefore they constitute 'spiritual things' whereas all our material things (houses/cars/money etc) these are all physical things.
some people put more emphasis on the physical things of life and pay no attention to the things of God. So this sort or person cannot be a spiritual person even if they display some of those good qualities.
Its more then just displaying the qualities for the sake of displaying the qualities. If you look at Jesus as an example, his focus in life was not on material things, it was on God and he gave everything he had for the sake of God.
If you want a modern day example, think Ned Flanders LOL. Perfect example of a cartoon character who is not concerned with his material things more then the spiritual things.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Blue Jay, posted 07-24-2009 3:42 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 141 (516380)
07-24-2009 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Stile
07-24-2009 11:20 AM


Re: Spiritual Atheist
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Where Peg (and most religions) mess up is Peg's second paragraph. For no reason at all they jump to a conclusion that these things are a result of being "guided by God's spirit" or some other nonsense. The fact is that all these attributes are available to all humans regardless of their beliefs. An atheist can be just as spiritual, or even more spiritual then a theist. It all depends on how "in tune" they are with the actual qualities, and nothing to do with how much they believe in their specific deities of choice. Spirituality is an inherent part of simply being human (having intelligence?) it does not come "from God" or any other external force/entity.
your right, i didnt quite explain that fully...while I said being 'guided by Gods spirit,' i also added 'and acts in accord with that spirit'
but i didnt explain what "acting in accord with the spirit' means.
You are saying that we all have said qualities simply because we are human and its a part of our intelligence. And you're right. It is a part of us, however these qualities do not naturally display themselves unless we activate them.
We have to consciously display them. Lets say someone is hurling abuse at you for no reason and they have done something really nasty to you...you either blow your top and tell them in no uncertain terms you've had enough OR you quietly and respectfully explain your feelings showing restraint, humility & self control.
Now i know whats easier to do lol. Its not so easy keeping oneself restrained under suffering. This is why having the qualities as a part of our nature is not the same as being a spiritual person.
Now this is the 2nd part of the equation: Its not only about how we display those qualities, but also how we use our lives and what our emphasis on life is.
Can i call myself a spiritual person if my whole focus in life is on building my wealth for instance? Or if my focus is on self indulgence?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Stile, posted 07-24-2009 11:20 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 14 of 141 (516480)
07-25-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Peg
07-24-2009 6:26 PM


Re: Four responders, four different answers.
Hi. Peg
Peg writes:
'a spiritual person is one who cherishes the things they cannot see'
While I appreciate what you're trying to say, this is one of the points that has always confused me before. I assume that "things one cannot see" refers to intangible things, rather than to invisible things.
But, the vagueness of the description makes it hard for a literalist like me to understand. For instance, hatred is just as intangible as love; happiness and sadness are also equally intangible. So, if the dichotomy is physical vs spiritual, then I would expect "spiritual" to be devoid of a value judgment, and to simply refer to anything that is not physical.
For instance, are hatred and sadness not also spiritual "states," just as love and happiness are? Or, does "spiritual" only refer to the positive side of the emotional spectrum?
-----
Peg writes:
Its more then just displaying the qualities for the sake of displaying the qualities. If you look at Jesus as an example, his focus in life was not on material things, it was on God and he gave everything he had for the sake of God.
I personally would have viewed "goodness for goodness' sake" as the most noble motivation. Anything else could rightly be called an "ulterior motive," and seems to suggest that we will only be good if we have to.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Peg, posted 07-24-2009 6:26 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-25-2009 2:09 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 141 (516486)
07-25-2009 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Blue Jay
07-25-2009 12:14 PM


Re: Four responders, four different answers.
For instance, are hatred and sadness not also spiritual "states," just as love and happiness are? Or, does "spiritual" only refer to the positive side of the emotional spectrum?
It could refer to only the positive, with hatred and sadness being negative; them being a lack of love and happiness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Blue Jay, posted 07-25-2009 12:14 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Blue Jay, posted 07-25-2009 2:54 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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