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Junior Member (Idle past 5387 days) Posts: 13 From: Huntsville, AL Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Another "New" View of Creation | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phage0070 Inactive Member |
LindaLou writes:
Why not? Whatever chemical reaction controls the linkup between optic nerves and the brain wouldn't suddenly stop working because it found the "wrong" brain tissue. I would find it more impressive if it could tell the difference and for some reason stopped working. How does the brain "know" how to adapt itself in these ways, even under extreme circumstances? DNA and chemical reactions don't go very far in explaining it. The size of brains is not a particularly good indicator of intelligence, although there is undoubtedly a point at which size reduction results in the loss of intelligence. For instance, whales have massive brains when compared to humans, yet there is no question that humans are smarter than whales. Of course there is the problem of measuring intelligence in the first place, which an IQ test does not really do very well.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
LindaLou writes:
You forget that people are not constructed whole, or from the outside in. They grow; they start small and get bigger. The optic nerve connections were very close and never diverged.
So exactly what part of the girl or her brain said "I can't put the information I need on the right hand side, so I'm going to rewire the left"? As opposed to, say, growing the optic nerve in the correct place, resulting in an inability to see objects to one side? LindaLou writes:
Each component part keeps functioning the best it can, and the pattern we call "consciousness" does not require the entirety of our brain to form. It does not "know" to rewire itself and it does not "know" anything is missing.
To rephrase my question: is there some consciousness in the brain, the body, or someplace else that enables the brain to rewire itself and function even when a large amount of it is missing? How does it "know" to do this?
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Will Seamus Ennis writes:
No, there is no intelligence in a helium atom. We don't have retarded helium atoms that respond incorrectly to situations; a helium atom simply exists. You are combining intelligence with existence seemingly without reason, and destroying whatever meaning the terms had in the process.
There's exactly enough intelligence within a helium atom to BE a helium atom and respond to stimuli or conditions like a helium atom.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
LindaLou writes:
That is exactly what is described in the article. "...rewired itself during development when she was still in her mother's womb." One lobe managed to cope with receiving stimuli from both visual fields. The brain is able to cope with and adapt to many different conditions, which includes unexpected nerve arrangements. It was a convenient, happy accident.
That's not what happened according to the article. Are you claiming that this was a convenient happy accident? LindaLou writes:
It does not detect that something has gone wrong; each component of the brain functions as it normally does. The amazing part is that those component parts can operate in many different configurations than the "normal" one. But in cases where it is substantially missing, how does the brain detect that something has gone badly wrong and in some cases compensate amazingly? What is the origin of those messages to do so? This does not at all imply that consciousness is separate from the material of the brain.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
Will Seamus Ennis writes: I don't see how we can come together about anything with such rigid of ideas of what constitutes the basic forces in the Universe. This is not a case if a difference in opinion, it is a case of you misusing language. You appear to be equating causality with intelligence. An inability to express you opinion is not support for that opinion, as it indicates that you (quite literally) do not know what you are talking about. Edited by Phage0070, : No reason given.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
LindaLou writes:
Again, you are thinking of it like multiple crazy coincidences. It isn't like that. How about this example: It seems very odd that this girl had a condition for which this "accident" was so highly "convenient." There is a forest on a slope, where the vast majority of trees point straight up, putting them on a 45 degree angle with the ground. One strange tree points straight out from the ground though, at right angles. This obviously is a hindrance to the tree, but it amazingly manages to function just fine. Do you consider it an amazing coincidence that all the limbs are still attached to the trunk, even though that trunk is significantly out of position? Of course not. The same goes for the roots of the abnormal tree; some trees need to cope with weak soil, and the fact that this tree developed an abnormally strong root system isn't impossible (although somewhat abnormal for this forest).
LindaLou writes:
No it isn't. We have no evidence of conscious developmental reaction of any organism, anywhere, at any time. It is all an automatic part of the functioning of the organism.
Surely the logical conclusion was that the girl's brain detected the problem and adapted. LindaLou writes:
And while I am sure your imagination is quite comforting, it isn't real. These studies do not support your preconceived conclusions, which brings me to my next point: Some kind of collective universal consciousness is perhaps a good way of summarising my beliefs. From your link:
quote:There are serious issues with his ability to perform the study accurately. LindaLou writes:
And there we see the crux of your argument: "I don't understand how it really works, and I understand my concept of magic. Therefore, I declare it much more likely to be magic!" I can't see how an explanation of adaptation of existing brain systems could apply to a thin layer a millimeter in thickness. This is referred to as an "Argument from Ignorance", and is not logical.
LindaLou writes:
If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck... QUACK! Dr. Bruce Lipton, a cell biologist, has been studying this concept via epigenetics and quantum physics, and its applications in holistic health. Bayblab: Quack of the week: Healing Water Online QUACK! Bruce Lipton, quack - Atheist in a (Metaphorical) Foxhole LiveJournal QUACK! John H Armstrong : Science QUACK!
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
LindaLou writes:
No you have not, it does not, and there isn't a missing piece! You have not been investigating the biological action behind why a stomach grows to the size it does and stops, while not sticking to the sides of the abdominal cavity but mating its ends to the esophagus and the duodenum. You have not been asking why a femur grows into the shape of a femur, rather than just keeping adding bone randomly. And finally, you have not been asking how an eye distinguishes itself from the surrounding tissue and links up with other parts of the body. I have been asking what that process is, exactly. How does the tree detect those circumstances and adjust? How does the brain? Where is that missing piece between stimulus and response? What you have been asking is how the brain commands such things to happen, which is plainly ridiculous; it does not command it to happen at all. Surely you would think it ridiculous for the brain to command the construction of three eyes, or the growth of only one, and yet you think it perfectly acceptable for it to command the divergence of nerves from one lobe to the other! Here is a hint toward understanding what happened: The eyes normally connect to both lobes of the brain. Both eyes. Each lobe normally interprets the opposite field of vision (the same side of the retina, remember that vision is flipped). It seems that the remaining lobe simply assumed the duties of the other lobe in vision, as it obviously did in other areas.
LindaLou writes:
Everything is an interpretation of evidence, and thus an opinion. Some are better than others, despite what your kindergarten teacher says.
The second sentence is an opinion. You are entitled to these same as me but at least recognise it for what it is. LindaLou writes:
Of course it does, but we don't need this example to keep science marching on. The study of the brain is ongoing, and would continue even without such examples. For example: Phineas Gage Surely that means that more studies should be done. The facts themselves remain: some people who are missing substantial parts of their brains can live normal lives. (There's another question here too: why do some others not -- and why does that not apply to everyone as we'd expect?)Phineas Gage - Wikipedia This guy had one or both of his frontal lobes destroyed by an iron rod driven completely through his head; it completely changed his personality and who he was. He managed to keep on living more functionally than many people even after his accident and, as his doctor relates:
quote: LindaLou writes:
Define the difference with something other than incredulity or rarity.
This isn't a case of simple adaptation, this is profound restructuring.
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Phage0070 Inactive Member |
LindaLou writes:
That isn't how logical thought happens. Logically you should look at something that happens through programmed responses and, when it operates differently in different circumstances than normal, assume that it still operates as a programmed response unless proof otherwise is shown.
I'm not claiming that thought is going on like it does in our heads, but it appears to me that somehow a consciousness is involved with the adaptation. I'm willing to be proved wrong, if that happens as biological and genetic research advance. LindaLou writes:
My point is that it has been known for quite a long time that it is possible to compensate for the loss of comparatively large amounts of brain matter even for an adult. Phineas Gage was helpful in sparking studies into the function of the brain, and even particular parts of the brain. Saying "this is an area that warrants further study" earlier in the thread seems to ignore the fact that this concept is not unknown. Scientists are very much aware, and have not ignored this area of study.
Can you find another, more modern example? . . . and remind me please what point you are making here? LindaLou writes:
Again, this isn't how logical thought progresses. We have evidence that a brain performs certain functions, excluding all other parts of the body. In the circumstances that the brain is very small, we still conclude that the brain performs those functions unless we have evidence that those functions have been assumed by other parts. We DON'T simply assume it isn't capable and make up some other explanation, or ghostly overseer.
I think it's pretty reasonable to posit that what he has for a brain can't be functioning the way a normal brain does, would be incapable of it, and must somehow be relying at least partially on other parts of the body.
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