Eco-Guilt

Sounds like these scientists are profoundly retarded.To suggest that temperature increases are CAUSING people to burn fossil fuels and drive H2s is just stupid.Global warming is NOT causing the coal to come to the surface. It's not digging the oil wells. It's not loading up the super tankers.The fact that you would ask for evidence of AGW while simulateously spouting this sort of contrived BS is pretty offensive.Either HOLD YOURSELF to the same standard or just up and admit you are simply being contrarian.CO2 _IS_ a green house gas. So is methane. Both of these things have been increasing in our atmosphere as a result of human behavior.Those facts are INDISPUTABLE.Ditto the fact that the Earth is heating up. Ditto the fact that it's heating up during a time of reduced solar activity.So, we are getting LESS heat from the Sun and still increasing in temp. We are doing this while simulateously increasing gas levels which we KNOW trap heat.And yet that's not evidence enough for you.Let's add that to the fact that the WORST case scenario for your side of the argument is this:
"A few people get rich."And what do we get as a side effect of that?
- Energy independence from terrorist states
- Less pollution in our air and waterThose are, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, sufficient reason to pursue these technologies.Meanwhile, if you are wrong in your assessment that 99.99% of the climatologists are making sh1t up - then it's game over for humanity.Let's chart that out:Subbie is right and we do nothing: Terrorists get richer, People get mercury poisoning at increasing ratesSubbie is wrong and we do nothing: The global temp increases, massive drought, loss of coastal waters, abandonment of cities, mass exinctionsSubbie is right and we do something: Someone gets rich, we stop funding the terrorists who hate us, cleaner air and water, but global catastrophy never happens.Subbie is wrong and we do something: Someone gets rich, we stop funding the terrorists who hate us, cleaner air and water, we avert global catastrophy.Why exactly would you be fighting for the "do nothings"?I mean, I guess you might be a Conservative. Their goal, according to their overlord, is apparently nothing short than the destruction of America.

I think it's profoundly unfair for your side of the debate to suggest things like "open-mindedness" while simulateously denying facts simply because you find them inconvienent.Yes, the Earth has gone through heating and cooling cycles. They happen at rates.Do you understand that the rate at which something happens is an important factor in determining if it's unusual or not?For example, all the cars in NASCAR go around the same big loop. But, if one of them completely the race in just under 6 minutes - it's no big deal, right? I mean after all, the cars have gone around the loops in the past. We have records of millions of cars competing in these races.Let's just ignore the fact that all the other NASCAR racers take hours to accomplish what this one car did in 6 minutes. Totally unimportant.Global Temps are increasing at a FASTER RATE than they have in the past. THAT'S IMPORTANT INFORMATION.

I'm unclear as to how sunspot activity is supposed to correlate/cause heating or cooling.I understand that sunspots are activity on the sun, but I've seen nothing to suggest that more or less sunspots have anything to do with temp.Wouldn't a sunspot have to be "aimed" at the Earth to have any effect on us anyway?Here's an even more complicated chart that shows total output from the sun going up and down regularly. Notice it stops as 2005, but if you look at 2000-2005, you'll see a steep decline in output.As of 2005 the hottest years on record were:
Rank Year
1 2005
1 1998
3 2002
4 2003
5 2004
6 2001
7 1997
8 1990
9 1995
10 1999
11 2000
12 1991
13 1987
14 1988
15 1994
16 1983
17 1996
18 1944
19 1989
20 1993Since then, had to pop in 3 more years, but since the chart is 2005, this is helpful.If solar output was the primary cause of global warming, then we'd expect that numbers to reflect that. The peeks would be the numbers on the chart and the valleys would not be there at all.Instead we see that the 2000-2005 are right up there at the top.Now, you _can_ argue that a high placement for 2008 would reflect that sun activity ramped back up giving it a slight boost. However, since they are ALL hot even when activity is down - we've got a problem.To simplify:
Sun's output is up, Earth is hotter.
Sun's output is down, Earth is hotter.
Sun's output goes up again, Earth is hotter.Clearly, something else is playing a MUCH bigger role in keeping us toasty.

While this site is primarily an evolution/Creationism site, the thread is global warming.If you are going to use Creationist arguments can you please keep them on a Creationist thread.

Not just that. They LITERALLY changed scientific reports to REMOVE evidence for/conclusion of global warming.Yet somehow it's the independent, no access, liberal media that's sneaking up to glaciers and stealing the ice.

Your argument is:Since the FACTS and scientific CONSENSUS are against me, it's because there scientific community has been tricked/persuaded into supporting something which I disagree with.That's the EXACT same argument used by Evolution denies, Global Warming deniers and Holocaust deniers.We get it. You are right and EVERYONE ELSE, no matter how educated, is wrong because YOU'RE just soooooooo much smarter than everyone else, you've seen through the trick.It's not hotter. It's actually colder. The ice isn't melting, it's just invisible.

Cute.Got any evidence to discuss? No? Didn't think so.
Got any facts to go over? No? Didn't think so.
Got any explanation for the fact that the hottest years on record are all within your lifespan? No? Didn't think so.
Got any opinion not handed to you by Rush Limbaugh? No? Didn't think so.I'll let you go back to playing with photoshop.

On your top three charts, the scale is so huge that they are virtually useless for the discussion.Remember, the issue is not whether or not there has been variation. There has been. No one disputes that. What's of concern is the amount and rate of change over time.When you look at a chart where 50 million years = 1 inch, it's simply impossible to examine changes in of the last century. If the temp increased 4 degrees over 25 million years and the temp changed 1 degree in the last 100 years, the 1 degree change is MUCH MORE significant than the 4 degree change because it happens much more rapidly.The 4th chart is slightly better but even still we're reducing 50,000 years to less than an inch. Can you show me the last 50 years on that chart? No.The 5th chart actually deals with temp and over a 2000 year period. It demonstrates a serious spike at the high end and it ends with 2004. That spike has gotten HIGHER in the last 5 years. Significantly higher than the medieval warming period and increasing at a steep rate.THAT'S the issue. Results which are significantly above normal and at a much higher rate coinciding with increased emissions of gasses which we KNOW cause this to happen.If you KNOW that pouring water in a bucket increases the amount of water in the bucket, then pouring water in while it's raining STILL increases the water in the bucket.The AGW deniers have to be dragged kicking and screaming because they are contrarian. They were the same people saying "It's not actually getting hotter". They were the same people saying "The glaciers aren't melting".Now they are saying "Okay, fine. It's getting hotter, but greenhouse gasses have nothing to do with it."Five years from now they'll be saying "Okay, it's being caused by greenhouse gasses but there's nothing we can do about it, so we shouldn't try."Five years after that they'll be saying "Okay, reduced emissions is having an effect on overall CO2, but that doesn't mean we should do more than what's already been done."They will ALWAYS be 5-10 years behind because they are deniers. That's what they do.The thing that pisses me off is that 50 years from now, they'll all be saying "I was always in support of the green movement. I was worried about this from the very beginning."

Scroll up. You JUST said that you think it's a result of peer pressure.When you make that claim, the unstated premise is that the conclusion is WRONG and that the people are being TRICKED.Now, since you've gotten called out on it, you suddenly deny it? Please. At least have the dishonest courtesy of editting your original post to change it so it looks like you were saying something different in the first place. There you go again.If you are going to accuse me of using strawman, you might want to get down off the scarecrow pole.

Then why are you here? What's your point?AGW isn't wrong but we STILL SHOULDN'T DO ANYTHING?Like I said earlier (and like a good Conservative you ignored) the END RESULTS of these policies are IN AND OF THEMSELVES sufficient reasons to inact these policies.Unless you ALSO have a problem with the conclusion that GIVING MONEY TO TERRORISTS results in TERRORISTS HAVING MONEY.Am I jumping to conclusions there, too?How about here? Burning coal that has mercury IN IT results in mercury in the air and later in the water.Too fast for you?By all means, let's not allow the concenesus of scientific thought to steer the nation in a useful and positive direction that yeilds benefits for all and harms no one. Heaven forbid. Again, please stop trying to change the conversation back to evolution vs creationism.We are ALL aware that you can name a handful of scientists who support your views on Creationism.They are the vocal minority who go against the consensus because NO MATTER HOW CLEAR SOMETHING IS there are ALWAYS contrarian people who can make a buck saying the opposite.That's true for your Creationist arguments. That's true for Global Warming. That's true for the Holocaust. That's true for hollow vs solid Earth.

You sound like a child throwing a fit because you don't want to take a bath.Time to grow up and act like an adult. You don't get to have everything your way every time because you want it that way.We have a problem. WE. If you don't want to deal with it, then expect to get penalized because the rest of us sure as shit aren't going to carry your fat lazy ass for you.And I don't want to hear you bitching about how expensive gas is, or how it's too hot, or how food prices have gone up 200% because the lower water table has just cut off half our food production. Oh, I get it. You're mad because you haven't bothered to read ANYTHING about it.And this is different than a Creationist how exactly?Do you HONESTLY believe that climatologists literally only have information since 1909? Have you ignored Mini's post about how they determine temps back thousands of years? Have you even heard of ice cores?What am I saying? If the Bible doesn't say Global Warming is happening, then it's not happening. Right? 50%. It's 50%.There. Happy? No? Oh right, because NO MATTER WHAT NUMBER YOU ARE TOLD YOU WILL DISREGARD IT.That's because you are contrarian. We get it.I swear, it's like arguing with a child.If you are running your air conditioner, don't leave the windows open. Can I tell you want percentage electricity you are wasting by having your windows open? No."Well, if you can't tell me with certainty to the 15th decimal place, then it's not true. And I'm not going to eat my veggies."Yawn.Alright, Timmy. You win. You're a big boy. You don't have to do anything. Go buy gas and pour it in a river. Good for you.

sigh.Hyro, seriously. Do you have ANYTHING to actually add? What's the problem here? Forgot to Tivo "Fox and Friends"?

Futile, yes. Subjective, no.The earth is heating up. Period.Even these deniers can no longer deny that. Though, if you asked them 5-10 years ago, they'd claim that it was "one or two hot years".Basically it comes down to an ideological debate.There are people out there who see a problem coming and want to do something about it which may be a little tough.There are people out there who simply don't care if they cause harm to others so long as their H2s have room for both of their Big Gulps.At their core, it's really just Christian fundamentalism driving the conservative movement. "It's the End Times so live it up".Why bother conserving fossil fuel? There's NO WAY we'll be able to use it all before Jesus comes back in 2010.Why not hunt down and kill the last X? It's just going to die when the rapture comes anyway.Why bother educating kids? The only lurnin' they need to do is whut gets lurned from the Bible.Obviously there's no way I'm going to convince a conservative that the rapture isn't coming. All I ask is that they ruin the planet QUIETLY rather than try and PREVENT PEOPLE from doing the right thing.

So we say, "Hey, please stop poisoning people" and your response is "You're a communist."God, you are a fucking child. Heaven forbid you get asked to clean up after yourself, you throw a fucking tantrum."Bwwaaaaah! I wanna have free gasoline!!!! It's NOT FAIR that I can't take a dump on everyone else!!!! BWAAAAH"Go ahead, bitch all you want. You ALREADY LOST. We're going to do the right thing whether or not you approve.Got a problem with it? I hear China has some nice brown skies for you, get the F out of the country.

So, you don't dispute that CO2 does cause greenhouse. And you CAN'T dispute that humans increase CO2.So, what you have left is this: "We don't know if humans cause 1% of the CO2 or 99% of the CO2, therefore we should do nothing"That's RETARDED.The actions necessary to reduce CO2 emissions are UNIVERSALLY POSITIVE IN ALL ASPECTS!If humans were responsible for .000000000000001% of the CO2 we should STILL stop releasing mercury vapors into the air. We should STILL stop stripmining the entire state of WV. We should STILL stop handing hundreds of billions of dollars over to terrorist nations. We should STILL strive to have cars that get more mpg. We should STILL find ways to make jet more effecient.There's NO downside.The ONLY people who are complaining are guys like Legend who get made any time anyone suggests they have to get off their fat ass and do anything.If humans are adding ANY CO2, and you KNOW that they are, to the system - then we should strive to reduce our input.If humans are removing CO2 sinks FROM the system, and you KNOW that they are - then we should strive to replace them.It's THAT simple. It doesn't matter if we're solely responsible or partially responsible, or simply exasperating the situation."I don't want to clean my room" is a child's argument.