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Author Topic:   the principles of world view
Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 8 of 85 (495524)
01-23-2009 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by homunculus
01-22-2009 2:18 AM


Now, take a look at the principles or the world views of each. In the realm of creation, everything being created, designed and sanctified by the most high, we learn from the bible that everything is "beautifully and wonderfully made" and that the lord highly values and ponders on his creation and humans.
Finally, I have always said that nature of humans is a self destructive one
So which is it?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 26 of 85 (496600)
01-29-2009 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by John 10:10
01-28-2009 6:32 PM


I stand corrected. Evolution is a belief system that doesn't know how matter came into existance, nor how life sprang from inanimate matter, but has faith that it somehow did, then somehow began the natural evolutionary process of evolving over millions/billions of years into all types of living plants and animals, from which man somehow evolved.
Evolution is not a "belief system", it's an explanatory framework for the variation we see in extant, and extinct, lifeforms. I don't know why Creationists have such difficulty with the simple point that Evolution cannot explain the existence of life.
As for having faith that life somehow sprung from non-living matter, this isn't faith. It's an inescapable conclusion. We know, for a fact, there is life on Earth now and we know, for a fact, there wasn't life on Earth 4.7 billion years ago. Something happened in the meantime; that we don't know what that is does not make it faith.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 31 of 85 (496713)
01-30-2009 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by John 10:10
01-29-2009 10:58 PM


The problem that we Creationists will always have with the "belief system of evolution" is that you believe life evolved without a Creator, and we do not.
Once again; it's not a belief system. You can disagree with the science, you can argue the evidence, question the reasoning but for as long as you prattle about "belief systems" you're going to miss the point. Evidence: learn it, understand it, criticise it. If you're right, you'll win. That's how science works.
As a Creationist, I believe God created everything after their own kind, from the simplest life form to the most complex, able to live and reproduce new life forms after their own kind.
I look at the evidence, and conclude from the evidence that Evolution happened. You see the difference? You're saying you believe in Creationism and conclude about the causes of life accordingly; I don't "believe in Evolution", I conclude it.
As many life forms became extinct during the 5 major extinction periods, God created new life forms, rather than postulating that some life forms survived the major extinction periods, and continued the evolutionary process after each major extinction.
That's a fascinating suggestion, could you start a new thread with more details of your views on this?

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 68 of 85 (497057)
02-01-2009 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by bluegenes
02-01-2009 9:46 AM


Re: Thanks to monkeys!
Given that Linnaeus grouped monkeys and apes most closely to Humans some hundred years before Darwin penned The Origin of Species, and apparently believed in the immutability of the species he was identifying, can it really be said that Evolution is required to recognise similarity?

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 Message 70 by kuresu, posted 02-01-2009 10:52 AM Dr Jack has replied
 Message 71 by bluegenes, posted 02-01-2009 11:23 AM Dr Jack has not replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 72 of 85 (497068)
02-01-2009 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by kuresu
02-01-2009 10:52 AM


Re: Thanks to monkeys!
Linne's groupings were based on phenotypical similarities. He grouped dolphins and fish together as well.
True. Linneaus erred on various groupings, and included a number of mythological entities in his scheme. However, that Dolphins were not fish is a fact originally recognised from their physical morphology not from any application of evolutionary theory.
The point is, chimps and humans may look similar. But that does not necessarily mean that we are related. And if we are not related, then any research done on chimps to improve human medicine is a fool's errand.
What makes the research useful or not is not whether we are related but whether the systems relevant to the study are similar. Which is why, for example, developmental biology studies done on fruit flies have proved useful in understanding the development of human babies and some disorders thereof.
While relatedness provides a useful proxy for similarity (because of evolution) it's really simularity, not relatedness, that matters.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 74 of 85 (497075)
02-01-2009 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Straggler
02-01-2009 12:17 PM


Re: Thanks to monkeys!
But to get to the underlying similarities, those similarities that are more than superficial, do we not need to understand relatedness?
No. You need to measure similarity. By similarity I don't just mean looking at brute physical traits, I also mean looking at metabolic pathways, protein structure, genomes, etc.
When it comes down to it, you don't need to understand evolution to deal with notions of more or less similar or establish which species are useful models for what features of humans (although, frankly, you'd have to be blind not to deduce evolution from what you find).

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